Range and charge time for full battery

[Robert.c.parker]

So the Rivian truck is rated for 400 miles on a single charge, is that 400 miles at 60mph with a full 11,000 pound load?

Also (forgive me if this has already been posted) is the charging port the same that is on a Chevy Volt or is a Chevy volt charger compatible with the Rivian trucks via adapter? If so how long would that Chevy volt charger take to recharge the Rivian truck?

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[Babbuino]

So the Rivian truck is rated for 400 miles on a single charge, is that 400 miles at 60mph with a full 11,000 pound load?

Also (forgive me if this has already been posted) is the charging port the same that is on a Chevy Volt or is a Chevy volt charger compatible with the Rivian trucks via adapter? If so how long would that Chevy volt charger take to recharge the Rivian truck?

Def not. If you tow 11k lbs then that range will prob drop by half. The 400miles range is most likely an estimate on a perfect day 25C ~60mph, but we need to wait to start seeing epa and real world testing on production spec'd batteries.
Rivian is using ccs and recommends a 240V with 40-60A for optimal charging speeds [on board charging is 11KW]
They updated their website not too long ago, and now you can call, chat or email them if you want to talk directly to them.
https://rivian.com/support

 

[ajdelange]

So the Rivian truck is rated for 400 miles on a single charge, is that 400 miles at 60mph with a full 11,000 pound load?

No. That is an estimate of what they think the EPA will rate them when they get to the point where they are ready for an EPA run. EPA testing involves a specific protocol involving "highway" and "suburban" driving both in quotes as they are run in a lab on a dynamometer. Each has a speed profile considered representative of, respectively, city or highway. The results of the two tests are weighted and averaged and the result in supposed to be representative of the mileage you would achieve in normal driving of the same mix between city and highway that the test protocol uses. FWIW I have always found the EPA ratings to be pretty good predictors of what I experience. Others find them not so good at all.

Rivian's new FAQ indicated that you can expect perhaps half the EPA range when towing. That's a number I often throw out because if you do all sorts of simulation and calculation typical answers are about half of the unburdened range. But you may get appreciably less than half if you have negative factors (rain or snow on roadbed, high weight, high speed, headwind...) working against you.

Also (forgive me if this has already been posted) is the charging port the same that is on a Chevy Volt or is a Chevy volt charger compatible with the Rivian trucks via adapter?

The Rivians will charge per the CCS standard. One of those C's stands for "combination" signifying that the receptacle on the truck will accept either a CCS fast charging cable or a J1772 Level 2 charging cable. I expect the Volt uses J1772 but I do not know for sure.

If so how long would that Chevy volt charger take to recharge the Rivian truck?

That depends on how much charge you want to replace which in turn depends on the speed of the charger and battery size. You will never fully discharge your battery and so you will never fully charge it.

It is quite simple to determine your daily energy and charging time requirements. If you drive 80 miles per day you will, in each day, deplete 80/400 or 20% of the battery. Range of 400 mi implies you have the 180 kWh pack and so to replenish the power you use on an 80 mile day you will need 0.2*180 = 36 kWh. The time required to take on that charge is 36/P where P is the power the charger can deliver in kW. For example, if you install Rivian's home charging termnal on a 60 A 240V circuit you will realize the maximum potential of the truck's on board charger which is 11.52 kW. You will replace the 36 kWh in 36/11.52 = 3.125 hr - actually a wee bit longer than that as the charger is not 100% efficient.

If you were using an old EVSE capable of handling only 3 kW then you would need 36/3 = 12 hrs +.

 

[DucRider]

So the Rivian truck is rated for 400 miles on a single charge, is that 400 miles at 60mph with a full 11,000 pound load?

Also (forgive me if this has already been posted) is the charging port the same that is on a Chevy Volt or is a Chevy volt charger compatible with the Rivian trucks via adapter? If so how long would that Chevy volt charger take to recharge the Rivian truck?

You'll be likely be at about 50% of the EPA range if towing that kind of load at that kind of speed.

Yes, you can charge the Rivian with the EVSE you use for your Volt, but it will likely be slower than the Rivian is capable of accepting. The Rivian will take up to 48A, and the Volt was either 16 or 32A depending on the actual model/year. Your current EVSE (the "charger" is built into the car and controls the maximum charge rate) may be able to provide more than the Volt accepts depending on make/model and how it is installed.

 

[timesinks]

Also (forgive me if this has already been posted) is the charging port the same that is on a Chevy Volt or is a Chevy volt charger compatible with the Rivian trucks via adapter? If so how long would that Chevy volt charger take to recharge the Rivian truck?

The connector for Level 1/Level 2 is the same as a Volt, but the Volt can only take about 3kW of power. The Rivians can take 11kW.

The most commonly installed home L2 chargers are probably around 7kW (40A circuit, rated for 32A continuous * 240V = 7.68kW). I don't know what you actually have, but if it's 7kW, you'll probably be fine. It won't charge the Rivian as fast as possible, but it'll easily restore the power for a typical person's daily driving over night. You may be happier upgrading it (we'll probably upgrade ours from a 7kW to an 11kW, but the service panel is in the garage, so it's a super easy job for us), but you don't have to.

 

[ElectricTrucking]

I just put in a 50 AMP 14-50 Nema charger outlet for my wife's bolt. I'm using the Clipper Creek 50 Amp box. I know the Bolt will only take 32 Amps and I felt the 40 Amps would be fine for the Rivian. I did hesitate on the 60 Amp. I can always change my breaker to 60 Amps. The 50 is with 6 gauge wire which my electrician said would handle 60 Amps.

 

[DucRider]

My local utility just offered a pilot for a new program that pays you to allow them to reduce or delay charging during "peak" events (you can override and charge anytime if you need to).
$500 toward a qualifying EVSE (currently only the ChargePoint Flex), and $25 twice a year if you have a minimum number of charge sessions and keep your EVSE connect to the internet 50% of the time.
Hardwired it on a new 60A circuit on the opposite side of the garage from my current 32A EVSE. Will be able to charge the Rivian at 48A.

ChargePoint Flex - $699
60A breaker, 8' of 6/2 wire, knockout clamp - ~$25
$724 Total

PGE rebate - $500 (plus $50/yr)
30% Federal Tax Credit ~$218

Net cost $8. Plus $50 a year in bill credits

I did not get an inspection for this EVSE (I did on my first one) since a sharp inspector (rare, but possible) would fail it. There is no way to install the ChargePoint to meet either the 2017 NEC (current version in my jurisdiction) or the upcoming 2020 NEC. I don't consider any of the code shortcomings a serious safety issue (I won't be charging a lead acid battery EV, i.e.) so don't have a problem with the unit.

Sent a summary of the issues to PGE which they will be addressing with ChargePoint. They have a lot more influence than any consumer could hope to.

 

[Mjhirsch78]

And a fun tidbit from the updated Rivian support page:
“ Yes, you’ll be able to purchase a Level 2 Rivian charging station that can be installed on a 240-volt power source and up to 60 amp circuit breaker”

 

[ajdelange]

There is no way to install the ChargePoint to meet either the 2017 NEC (current version in my jurisdiction) or the upcoming 2020 NEC. I don't consider any of the code shortcomings a serious safety issue (I won't be charging a lead acid battery EV, i.e.) so don't have a problem with the unit.

Curious enough about that that I downloaded the installation manual. I don't see anything that would preclude installing this unit to code provided that it is commissioned at a maximum current of 48A just as there is no problem with a Tesla Gen 2 HPWC (80A max) installed on a 60 A circuit as long as it is provisioned at 48A.

What did I miss?

 

[electruck]

Curious enough about that that I downloaded the installation manual. I don't see anything that would preclude installing this unit to code provided that it is commissioned at a maximum current of 48A just as there is no problem with a Tesla Gen 2 HPWC (80A max) installed on a 60 A circuit as long as it is provisioned at 48A.

What did I miss?

I was wondering the same since I just installed the same ChargePoint unit. The only thing questionable I saw was his mention of wiring with 6/2 NM (NEC limits ampacity to 55A @ 60C). With my install we used 6 AWG THHN conductors (75A @ 90C) through conduit. The ChargePoint unit explicitly calls for the use of 90C rated conductors.

This was one detail where I was glad I did extensive research before having the circuit wired as the first electrician I got an estimate from would have used 4/2 NM wiring. Turns out a 4 AWG conductor is too large for the ChargePoint's terminal block.

 

[ajdelange]

He didn't actually say that it was NM. Just that it was 6/2. I assumed that someone with enough familiarity with the code to have identified a problem with the EVSE would know better than to use 65° wire to hook it up. There is no doubt that an even half awake inspector would flunk him for using NM behind a 60 A breaker. And there is no way PG&E and ChargePoint can work something out to make that doable.

Yes, it pays to do thorough research but I still advocate consulting with a qualified electrician. Beyond all his knowledge of NEC and local requirements he knows the inspectors (my electrician got his son a job as one).

 

[ajdelange]

Not to mention that the Charge Point unit could, as far as I can see, be wired to a 70A breaker with No. 4 and the requisite over 60A disconnect and be commissioned for its maximum 50A all within code AFAIK. Not that there would be much point in doing that for the Rivians which will only be able to take 48 A.

 

[electruck]

He didn't actually say that it was NM. Just that it was 6/2.

That is true and my mention of NM was simply an extrapolation based on available info of something that may have been responsible for his suggestion of the install not meeting code. Hopefully he will correct or confirm this detail.

I'm not well versed in the available wiring options but 6/2 would seem to imply a jacketed bundle. Is there any 6/2 option that is rated for 90C?

Not to mention that the Charge Point unit could, as far as I can see, be wired to a 70A breaker with No. 4 and the requisite over 60A disconnect and be commissioned for its maximum 50A all within code AFAIK. Not that there would be much poinr in doing that for the Rivians which will only be able to take 48 A.

No, the ChargePoint Home Flex terminal block will NOT accept a 4 AWG conductor. Per the installation guide (across pp 9-10 page break): "The field-wiring terminal is rated to 105 ̊C and accepts a maximum of 16 mm 2 (6 AWG) wire."

 

[ajdelange]

I'm not well versed in the available wiring options but 6/2 would seem to imply a jacketed bundle. Is there any 6/2 option that is rated for 90C?

I think most electricians would stay away from 90°C wire because you must install breakers capable of that temperature in order to run 90° wire at its 90° rated current. And such a breaker can be hard to come by at less than 100A

No, the ChargePoint Home Flex terminal block will NOT accept a 4 AWG conductor. Per the installation guide (across pp 9-10 page break): "The field-wiring terminal is rated to 105 ̊C and accepts a maximum of 16 mm 2 (6 AWG) wire."

It would seem that ChargePoint has something like this in mind in using 105 °C rated terminals. No 6 THHN is good to 75A if connected to terminals rated at 90 °C or higher. Now all you need is a 70A breaker with terminals rated at 90 °C. Or, I suppose, a simpler solution would be to run No. 4 to the disconnect (required as you have a circuit rated > 60A) and have terminals on the switch rated for 90 ° or within the enclosure splice the 75° No.4 to 90° No. 6 using something like these:https://www.morrisproducts.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=272FE6C8CABC4B35A79F44E287D7E943 for the short run to the ClipperCreek enclosure.

Mind you this isn't stuff that the average electrician will have on his truck but the question is why there is "no way" to install a ClipperCreek box in a code compliant way.

And I do have to say that I don't think it is very nice of ClipperCreek to make us go to all this sort of trouble for a lousy 2 amps. Why not just use lugs big enough to accept No. 4 (though I don't wish having to work with No. 4 on my worst enermies).

 

[DucRider]

I did not use NM-B, and probably should have specified. Indeed although NM-B conductors are rated at 90, the cable itself must be sized using the 60 degree rating.

Since I installed it hardwired, it would not fail for the "fastened in place" (tool free removal) requirement for any stationary equipment using a plug. This unit cannot be plugged in and meet NEC 625.44. It also would not fail for the GFCI outlet required in 625.54 since ChargePoint states that if a GFCI outlet is required by code, the EVSE must be hardwired. The GFCI requirement is somewhat contradicted in 625.22 where it specifies that the required personnel protection system can be located in the EVSE itself.

The two areas where it would fail are:
User selectable amperages. In fact, the electrician is instructed to have the homeowner complete the installation using the app to set the amperage.

625.52 requires that the unit refuse to charge vehicle that requests ventilation while charging (unless installed outdoors or connected to a mechanical ventilation system sized as specified in the NEC). In addition, the unit should be clearly labeled as either "Ventilation Required" or "Ventilation Not Required" by the 2017 NEC in 625.15. The 200 version has removed this section, but retains the requirement that the EVSE pay attention to ventilation requests. It is worth noting that the unit does contain a "Not for use for vehicles requiring ventilation" label, but not where it is visible after installation unless you are a contortionist or use a cell phone camera to peer up underneath where the charging/power cables enter the unit.

I consider the ease in which an owner can set, either accidentally or intentionally, the EVSE to draw over the capacity of the circuit it is installed on to be a fairly major issue.

Since virtually nothing on the market in recent history uses a J1772 plug and lead acid batteries, the ventilation requirement does not really pose a safety hazard.

This unit cannot be installed using a plug and meet the NEC and therefor most (all?) electrical codes. Hardwired installations are better, but still have issues meeting code.

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