Rivian brings wrapped R1T & EDV to the DEF CON hacker convention

[COdogman]

Yeah, privacy is a component of security, not all of security.

I do generally opt out of location services. There is no technical need for Rivian to store a history of my precise location in order to offer GPS navigation. They do store it, and say they may share my data with advertisers and with law enforcement even when not legally required to do so.

With the new map update, Rivian also makes you agree to Google TOS.

I know Rivian isn't the worst company out there, but they follow lots of "industry standard" shady anti-consumer practices with regard to privacy.

I agree they could make it better. I guess I have managed expectations with a vehicle this connected, and I'm ok with it as long as they tell me what they collect, what they do with it, and give me an opt out, even if I don't like the packaging of that choice (all or nothing).

From their perspective, sharing with law enforcement is likely a positive while many of us disagree. So I'm trying to see both sides of it.

Sponsored

 

[Steve A.]

They are one of the companies trying to do things the right way.

If Rivian really cared about customer privacy then they would allow *opt-out* for ALL data collection which they do not. See section 4 of your sales agreement as well as their privacy statement for details.

4. Data Policy Notice and Terms of Use You consent to Rivian and/or its affiliates collecting data from You or about You or Your Vehicle (including your Vehicle’s location data) and agree that it will be collected and used in accordance with Our Data Privacy Notice and Rivian Terms, each of which is incorporated herein by reference and available on Our website at rivian.com/legal/privacy and rivian.com/legal/terms. Please read Our Data Privacy Notice and Rivian Terms carefully to understand the data that We collect and Our practices regarding Your information and how it will be treated. If You have questions regarding Our Data Privacy Notice or Rivian Terms, You should contact us by email at [email protected].​

​

ICYMI: There's no such thing as truly *anonymous* personal data as has been proven by law enforcement MANY times over the years.

As far as consumer protection, RIvian along with the rest of the manufacturers is lacking with it comes to *right to privacy* as well as *right to repair*.

 

[COdogman]

If Rivian really cared about customer privacy then they would allow *opt-out* for ALL data collection which they do not. See section 4 of your sales agreement as well as their privacy statement for details.

4. Data Policy Notice and Terms of Use You consent to Rivian and/or its affiliates collecting data from You or about You or Your Vehicle (including your Vehicle’s location data) and agree that it will be collected and used in accordance with Our Data Privacy Notice and Rivian Terms, each of which is incorporated herein by reference and available on Our website at rivian.com/legal/privacy and rivian.com/legal/terms. Please read Our Data Privacy Notice and Rivian Terms carefully to understand the data that We collect and Our practices regarding Your information and how it will be treated. If You have questions regarding Our Data Privacy Notice or Rivian Terms, You should contact us by email at [email protected].​

​

ICYMI: There's no such thing as truly *anonymous* personal data as has been proven by law enforcement MANY times over the years.

As far as consumer protection, RIvian along with the rest of the manufacturers is lacking with it comes to *right to privacy* as well as *right to repair*.

Yes, you can opt out of all data collection and connectivity:

Rivian’s policy is not perfect. Again, my point is that 1. they are transparent in telling you what data they collect. 2. What they do with it, and 3. Allow you to opt out if you want to.

You may not like them, but you do have options.

 

[Steve A.]

Yes, you can opt out of all data collection and connectivity:

Rivian’s policy is not perfect. Again, my point is that 1. they are transparent in telling you what data they collect. 2. What they do with it, and 3. Allow you to opt out if you want to.

You may not like them, but you do have options.

The bottom line is that you should NOT have to agree on your sales agreement to collection of your location in real-time (among MANY other data) in order to purchase ANY consumer product.

Making a service appointment to disable spyware is ridiculous considering how long it takes to get a service appointment and in the mean time you just signed a sales agreement giving them AND their affiliates the legal rights to use your data until then.

 

[COdogman]

The bottom line is that you should NOT have to agree on your sales agreement to collection of your location in real-time (among MANY other data) in order to purchase ANY consumer product.

Making a service appointment to disable spyware is ridiculous considering how long it takes to get a service appointment and in the mean time you just signed a sales agreement giving them AND their affiliates the legal rights to use your data until then.

I really do understand your point. And I don’t entirely disagree with it. But you said you cannot opt out of data collection and you can. You may not like the process but you can do it If it’s important to you.

Also, it goes without saying that if you are that uncomfortable with the privacy policy you don’t have to buy the product. It’s a choice we all have to make.

 

[Steve A.]

I really do understand your point. And I don’t entirely disagree with it. But you said you cannot opt out of data collection and you can. You may not like the process but you can do it If it’s important to you.

Also, it goes without saying that if you are that uncomfortable with the privacy policy you don’t have to buy the product. It’s a choice we all have to make.

So, the sales agreement was not provided until only AFTER I got an auto loan and provided Rivian a check for the remainder (probably after a trade-in for some?), and not when I pre-ordered it 27 months earlier;so saying, "you don't have to buy the product," is extremely disingenuous; it's like saying you don't have to buy the house if while you're in the middle of signing the mountain of paperwork you discover a required form that you have to sign with which you have a MAJOR problem.

If we actually had politicians that cared about consumer protection laws, another requirement would be that a blank sales agreement must be provided at time of deposit, IMHO.

Instead, not a day goes by that I don't hear it from my wife about my spy truck after spending years trying to get my wife and daughter on the privacy train. SMH

Hoping Scout resolves this issue like every other Rivian issue that I hate including right to repair.

In the mean time, I'll be keeping my 2014 Ford Expedition Limited w/ 220K+ miles on it which does not spy on me and also solves most of the Rivian poor design decisions.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

If we actually had politicians that cared about consumer protection laws, another requirement would be that a blank sales agreement must be provided at time of deposit, IMHO.

If we had this we wouldn't need to worry about privacy as companies wouldn't be allowed to sell your data.

 

[Steve A.]

If we had this we wouldn't need to worry about privacy as companies wouldn't be allowed to sell your data.

It's not just about selling your data although that's definitely a major concern; it's also about WHEN (not IF) they get hacked with your data.

So, glad Rivian is participating in DEF CON for WHEN they get hacked with YOUR data because they WILL BE HACKED and lose your data.

 

[COdogman]

So, the sales agreement was not provided until only AFTER I got an auto loan and provided Rivian a check for the remainder (probably after a trade-in for some?), and not when I pre-ordered it 27 months earlier;so saying, "you don't have to buy the product," is extremely disingenuous; it's like saying you don't have to buy the house if while you're in the middle of signing the mountain of paperwork you discover a required form that you have to sign with which you have a MAJOR problem.

If we actually had politicians that cared about consumer protection laws, another requirement would be that a blank sales agreement must be provided at time of deposit, IMHO.

Instead, not a day goes by that I don't hear it from my wife about my spy truck after spending years trying to get my wife and daughter on the privacy train. SMH

Hoping Scout resolves this issue like every other Rivian issue that I hate including right to repair.

In the mean time, I'll be keeping my 2014 Ford Expedition Limited w/ 220K+ miles on it which does not spy on me and also solves most of the Rivian poor design decisions.

It’s not “disingenuous“ because during those 27 months you were able to review the privacy policies AND the purchase agreement. It was all out there. You don’t get to review the privacy policy for your home purchase or most of the other docs before closing. So you were very much able to make an informed decision prior to delivery of your Rivian.

Totally 100% agree about politicians, but most have zero understanding of the problem, so I would not hold my breath they are capable of solving it.

Likewise, expecting VW owned Scout to “solve” the problem is not realistic. TBH I doubt you will ever find what you are looking for If you claim a 2014 Expedition “solves Rivian’s poor design decisions“. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve seen here in a while

 

[godfodder0901]

I really do understand your point. And I don’t entirely disagree with it. But you said you cannot opt out of data collection and you can. You may not like the process but you can do it If it’s important to you.

Also, it goes without saying that if you are that uncomfortable with the privacy policy you don’t have to buy the product. It’s a choice we all have to make.

So, the sales agreement was not provided until only AFTER I got an auto loan and provided Rivian a check for the remainder (probably after a trade-in for some?), and not when I pre-ordered it 27 months earlier;so saying, "you don't have to buy the product," is extremely disingenuous; it's like saying you don't have to buy the house if while you're in the middle of signing the mountain of paperwork you discover a required form that you have to sign with which you have a MAJOR problem.

If we actually had politicians that cared about consumer protection laws, another requirement would be that a blank sales agreement must be provided at time of deposit, IMHO.

Instead, not a day goes by that I don't hear it from my wife about my spy truck after spending years trying to get my wife and daughter on the privacy train. SMH

Hoping Scout resolves this issue like every other Rivian issue that I hate including right to repair.

In the mean time, I'll be keeping my 2014 Ford Expedition Limited w/ 220K+ miles on it which does not spy on me and also solves most of the Rivian poor design decisions.

Pretending like Rivian painted you into a corner is a but disingenuous as well, don't you think? Given your very strong views on the topic, you could have required that data policy up front. As @COdogman said, Rivian could absolutely do better, but don't pretend like you didn't have options.

 

[Steve A.]

It’s not “disingenuous“ because during those 27 months you were able to review the privacy policies AND the purchase agreement. It was all out there. You don’t get to review the privacy policy for your home purchase or most of the other docs before closing. So you were very much able to make an informed decision prior to delivery of your Rivian.

Totally 100% agree about politicians, but most have zero understanding of the problem, so I would not hold my breath they are capable of solving it.

Likewise, expecting VW owned Scout to “solve” the problem is not realistic. TBH I doubt you will ever find what you are looking for If you claim a 2014 Expedition “solves Rivian’s poor design decisions“. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve seen here in a while

The sales agreement was NOT available for review until the truck was produced and the time where I had to provide the final payment.

Design decisions that Ford made for the 2014 Expedition Limited that are SUPERIOR to Rivian's design decisions EVEN today...

1. ZERO spyware
2. REAL leather and not pleather (aka vegan leather).
3. sunroof with cover vs a 100% glass roof which does not open.
4. usable center console w/ 4 permanent cup holders instead of 2 flimsy retractable cup holders, an over-engineered p.o.s. camp speaker, and a poorly designed smartphone charging pad.
5. retractable running boards vs ZERO OEM options.
6. 3rd row windows that pop out so that you can actually roll down only the 1st row windows w/o reverberations that blow out your ear drums
7. a 12V battery that lasts more than a year, can be easily replaced, and doesn't cost $900+ to replace.
8. physical key so that when your 12V battery fails you can easily open your doors.
9. an actual glove box
10. a rear window that pops open w/o opening the entire rear hatch

I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting but that's off the top of my head.

 

[Steve A.]

Pretending like Rivian painted you into a corner is a but disingenuous as well, don't you think? Given your very strong views on the tipic, you could have required that data policy up front. As @COdogman said, Rivian could absolutely do better, but don't pretend like you didn't have options.

Absolutely FALSE. At the time I committed my $1k deposit there were ZERO other EV trucks on the market.

And, until I was in the middle of several weeks of the sale after having to FedEx the final check to Rivain (ridiculous) I was shocked and appalled that I could not opt-out of the spyware.

So, let's not whitewash the process and revise history,

 

[COdogman]

The sales agreement was NOT available for review until the truck was produced and the time where I had to provide the final payment.

Design decisions that Ford made for the 2014 Expedition Limited that are SUPERIOR to Rivian's design decisions EVEN today...

1. ZERO spyware
2. REAL leather and not pleather (aka vegan leather).
3. sunroof with cover vs a 100% glass roof which does not open.
4. usable center console w/ 4 permanent cup holders instead of 2 flimsy retractable cup holders, an over-engineered p.o.s. camp speaker, and a poorly designed smartphone charging pad.
5. retractable running boards vs ZERO OEM options.
6. 3rd row windows that pop out so that you can actually roll down only the 1st row windows w/o reverberations that blow out your ear drums
7. a 12V battery that lasts more than a year, can be easily replaced, and doesn't cost $900+ to replace.
8. physical key so that when your 12V battery fails you can easily open your doors.
9. an actual glove box
10. a rear window that pops open w/o opening the entire rear hatch

I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting but that's off the top of my head.

Yes, the purchase agreements were out there to review if you were interested in finding them. When I took delivery there was not a single doc I signed that I had not already read, whether I found it on Rivian’s website or here on the forum.

Likewise, you KNEW your Rivian would not have the items on your wish (complaint) list when you purchased. It really sounds like you should have just stuck with your 2014 Expedition.

 

[godfodder0901]

Absolutely FALSE. At the time I committed my $1k deposit there were ZERO other EV trucks on the market.

And, until I was in the middle of several weeks of the sale after having to FedEx the final check to Rivain (ridiculous) I was shocked and appalled that I could not opt-out of the spyware.

So, let's not whitewash the process and revise history,

You didn't have to purchase it. That was YOUR CHOICE...

And I guarantee I purchased mine before you did, and I had access to it well before I paid a dime to Rivian other than the FULLY REFUNDABLE deposit.

 

[Steve A.]

Yes, the purchase agreements were out there to review if you were interested in finding them. When I took delivery there was not a single doc I signed that I had not already read, whether I found it on Rivian’s website or here on the forum.

Likewise, you KNEW your Rivian would not have the items on your wish (complaint) list when you purchased. It really sounds like you should have just stuck with your 2014 Expedition.

The burden of proof is on YOU. Please provide the URL from the wayback machine in March 2021 when I placed my $1K preorder deposit because I do not see a purchase agreement, *data privacy* statement, nor *data collection* mentioned.

And here's the wayback machine in June 2023 when I purchased it.

Provide the links, and I'll be more than happy to admit you were right; however, it doesn't change the fact that I was blindsided by the lack of opting out for spyware at time of signing the purchase agreement.

Sponsored