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SASSquatch

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No, we don't. As DC fast chargers are not the only way to "fuel-up" an EV.

What we need is hundreds of thousands of L2 EVSEs. And amazingly most EVs come with one. (Tesla being an exception.) And the BIL funding is planning to put in ~450k L2 EVSEs where people need them most: Apartments, businesses, shopping malls, parks, etc. And lots of states/utilities have incentives for people to install a L2 EVSE at home.
Nobody is arguing that we don't need a very large number of Level 2 chargers. Level 2 chargers are not what is holding back the sale of EVs. Period.

Level 2 charging is a much easier problem for the consumer to manage because, with few exceptions, people can install a charger at home and there are already state, local, and federal incentives to do so.

In order to scale EV adoption you must satisfy the fears of the average consumer who worries they won't find a charger when they are on a road trip. Even though most people drive most of their miles locally, that doesn't translate to rational human behavior.

We judge the viability of our transportation on whether or not we are likely to be stranded on a roadtrip that amounts to 10 percent or less of our total driving.

If you look at polls of people who are afraid to buy an EV the main reason is cost and reliability and availability of charging. Cost will come down as we scale, but the network must be reliable, ubiquitous, and reasonably fast.

That requires, at a minimum tens of thousands of DC fast chargers in order for most Americans to feel "safe" leaving for a road trip. Likely more.

That's human psychology 101.
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Chinna

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I'll pay whatever it takes to retrofit my R1T with NACS.
Either way you need carry adapter! If you convert to NACS and plan to use CCS you need adapter.

I will buy adapter CCS to NACS, if rivian is converting
 

MP3Mike

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That requires, at a minimum tens of thousands of DC fast chargers in order for most Americans to feel "safe" leaving for a road trip. Likely more.
So, you've changed your mind! Good job, I agree with this.

Tesla already has tens of thousands. (Yes, barely and not all available to Ford/GM at this time.) They are planning to have ~50k Superchargers in North America by the end of next year. But Tesla doesn't have to do it alone, there are a lot of CPOs that are going to install, or upgrade to, NACS capable chargers as well.

And NEVI funding will be supporting the addition of ~20k DC fast chargers over the next 5 years. (My guess is a significant portion of them will be NACS capable.)
 

SASSquatch

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Sorry, Sandy but I couldn't disagree with you more.

The best thing Rivian should do now is fire up the phone lines and get Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, Polestar, Volkswagen, Stilantis, Nissan, Lucid, Toyota, Subaru, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, and any other OEM I am missing to pledge to develop an open CCS network (meaning, it will have a tesla cable/adapter).

This GM and Ford agreement is nonsense, will create confusion, and is going to create an absolute calamity.
 
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strykerwsu

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No, we don't. As DC fast chargers are not the only way to "fuel-up" an EV.

What we need is hundreds of thousands of L2 EVSEs. And amazingly most EVs come with one. (Tesla being an exception.) And the BIL funding is planning to put in ~450k L2 EVSEs where people need them most: Apartments, businesses, shopping malls, parks, etc. And lots of states/utilities have incentives for people to install a L2 EVSE at home.
Maybe in urban areas but out in the Midwest and West where we often drive over 250 miles in a day for kids sports etc, we have to have DC chargers just like gas stations for there to truly be adoption. I can't currently take the truck without pissing off the family or possibly missing a game etc if DC chargers aren't available.
 

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MP3Mike

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Out of Spec says that the feds/states needs to pull the brakes on the NEVI funding and switch the rules so that only NACS chargers gets access to the funding:




And it sounds like he has heard from a lot of the people in the industry that appear to be planning to make the switch.
 

SASSquatch

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So, you've changed your mind! Good job, I agree with this.

Tesla already has tens of thousands. (Yes, barely and not all available to Ford/GM at this time.) They are planning to have ~50k Superchargers in North America by the end of next year. But Tesla doesn't have to do it alone, there are a lot of CPOs that are going to install, or upgrade to, NACS capable chargers as well.

And NEVI funding will be supporting the addition of ~20k DC fast chargers over the next 5 years. (My guess is a significant portion of them will be NACS capable.)
How have I changed my mind? I'm acknowledging the obvious that we need Level 2 chargers - that was never in question nor did I say that we didn't need them.

The issue is, what is the need for Level 3 charging in order to scale EV adoption. That requires tens of thousands of DC fast chargers in the short-term and likely hundreds of thousands in the long term (10 years plus).

My position hasn't changed at all.
 

SASSquatch

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Out of Spec says that the feds/states needs to pull the brakes on the NEVI funding and switch the rules so that only NACS chargers gets access to the funding:




And it sounds like he has heard from a lot of the people in the industry that appear to be planning to make the switch.
I wouldn't trust anything that CutTheLine Kyle has to say on this issue. Saying CCS is dead is the dumbest thing I've ever heard and I will believe it when I see it.
 

SASSquatch

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So, you've changed your mind! Good job, I agree with this.

Tesla already has tens of thousands. (Yes, barely and not all available to Ford/GM at this time.) They are planning to have ~50k Superchargers in North America by the end of next year. But Tesla doesn't have to do it alone, there are a lot of CPOs that are going to install, or upgrade to, NACS capable chargers as well.

And NEVI funding will be supporting the addition of ~20k DC fast chargers over the next 5 years. (My guess is a significant portion of them will be NACS capable.)
An actual, you know, educated analysis.:

While 2030 may seem years off and a problem for tomorrow, development of common standards and deployment of charging stations will take time. But even looking at 2025 – just three years away – there could be as many as 7.8 million electric vehicles in operation (VIO) in the United States, McIlravey said.

To support that vehicle population, we expect there will need to be about 700,000 Level 2 and 70,000 Level 3 chargers deployed, including both public and restricted-use facilities. By 2027, we expect there will be a need for about 1.2 million Level 2 chargers and 109,000 Level 3 chargers deployed nationally. Looking further to 2030, with the assumption of 28.3 million units EVs on US roads, an estimated total of 2.13 million Level 2 and 172,000 Level 3 public chargers will be required – all in addition to the units that consumers put in their own garages.


https://press.spglobal.com/2023-01-...pulation,Level 3 chargers deployed nationally.
 

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Zorg

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Tesla charger has always been a superior product and the CCS handle sucks. By year end, most manufacturers will switch officially to NACS and that will be the end of CCS1. One will still be able to charge at EA if one wants to.

The fact is that Tesla seems to have a major cost advantage when it comes to deploying fast chargers. They're also much faster at doing so. Tesla is going to dominate the fast charging business for a while.
 

COdogman

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Out of Spec says that the feds/states needs to pull the brakes on the NEVI funding and switch the rules so that only NACS chargers gets access to the funding:




And it sounds like he has heard from a lot of the people in the industry that appear to be planning to make the switch.
That would be an absolutely ridiculous reaction. It should not even be considered until the Tesla plug is out of Tesla’s control and in the hands of a truly independent body. Otherwise why not just write a huge gov’t check to Elon - he does love that.
 

FrankieJ

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No really.

Tesla has said NACS is an open standard.

If Tesla denies Rivian's application to join NACS/Supercharger Network on equal footing to Ford and GM that is Tesla exercising monopolistic power to limit competition.

Tesla would lose big time in court. Not to speak of court of public opinion.

CCS in North America is now Betamax.
I’m not a lawyer and I suspect you aren’t either but I don’t see how Tesla could be forced to do business with Rivian. With the Cybertruck a year or so away (?) I doubt that Tesla wants to give Rivian access to their supercharger network. While they did so for Ford they would like nothing better than Rivian going under. That will never happen with Ford.
 

e4gaa1104

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Chances of Rivian adopting NACS? Either from new or retro fitting? If thats even possible
 

docwhiz

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Sorry, Sandy but I couldn't disagree with you more.

The best thing Rivian should do now is fire up the phone lines and get Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, Polestar, Volkswagen, Stilantis, Nissan, Lucid, Toyota, Subaru, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, and any other OEM I am missing to pledge to develop an open CCS network (meaning, it will have a tesla cable/adapter).

This GM and Ford agreement is nonsense, will create confiusion, and is going to create an absolute calamity.
Absolutely not going to happen. OEMs aren't interested in developing a charging network. VW only did it because they had a court order as punishment (and they've really screwed it up).
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