The Verge - US finalizes rule to effectively ban Chinese vehicles, which could include Polestar

[Deleted member 18486]

In 2024, 37% of all the cars sold worldwide by Tesla were sold in China. What will be the U.S. response be if/when China threatens to ban the sales of EVs from companies with U.S. ownership?

Global automakers are losing billions in the Chinese market. The Chinese gov doesn’t need to lift a finger. They will soon all withdraw on their own. Even the mighty Buick is dead.

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[Donald Stanfield]

Does anyone think that Chinese EVs here in the states would help more than it would hurt? Wouldn't it force more competition, innovation, price parity, etc?

I get the downsides, but it still makes me wonder if a ban is the "right" thing to do.

LOL

 

[NY_Rob]

.. A lot of this resentment against China seems to be because they can do many things better than us. People seem to think that they only way that can happen is because they're "cheating". In reality, they're playing the same game we are, but they're doing a better job of it.

If you believe using forced labor (your "free" citizens, not convicted criminals) during peacetime to build your products to sell in a world marketplace is "doing it better", well... I just have no reply that will change that mindset.

 

[NY_Rob]

Flip the script. How do you think every other country in the world feels about US software and hardware? Europe for example has been battling the US spyware giants for a long time. US companies are capturing huge quantities of personal data from people in every single other country, as well in the US. It's just hypocritical to say no one else is allowed to do that except for us.

I 100% agree with you here.. our companies have been terrible to not just us, but our allies around the world when it comes to invasive software.

But, our commercial software has been released by commercial interests and has always been in service of somehow adding to their own bottom line. Not so with SW from China, Russia, etc.. where it's written by government hackers or written with govt hacker hooks to track locations and harvest personal data for government/military use.

Do you honestly thing the US would NOT use our home-grown hardware and software to launch cyber attacks against other countries? We have done so before you know.

Like using exploding Pagers?... I sure wish the US had the gnads to do that kind of stuff!

 

[Nixapatfan]

This law isn't banning Chinese car companies all it's saying is the software can only phone home to servers here and not allow access to CCP. Nothing stopping them from setting up shop here and play by our rules. Same thing with tiktok, the issue there is they block everything anti China but everything anti US is fair game slowly controlling the narrative without you even knowing it thinking it's just harmless videos.

China has been doing these things at a much higher level to our companies for years just look up what Tesla, Google, Facebook and etc have to do to stay in business over there. All our legacy automakers having to partner with their local companies maybe we should force that on them here.

 

[VSG]

If you believe using forced labor (your "free" citizens, not convicted criminals) during peacetime to build your products to sell in a world marketplace is "doing it better", well... I just have no reply that will change that mindset.

You're right, our good-ole American companies NEVER do that. Aside from Apple and Nike just to name two ... We just like to do it in other people's countries, or do it to undocumented or child workers in our own country ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=use+of+child+labor+by+american+companies

Face it, we deliberately off-shore our production BECAUSE those countries will look away and BECAUSE they have lower standards. The same "do it over there so we don't have to do it here" mentality which applies to labor and health and environmental regulations of all sorts. But make no mistake; American companies knowingly encourage and participate in this practice.

If bettering the working conditions in China were a primary goal, then there are far more effective ways to go about that, which would have translated into increased pay, benefits, standard of living, etc. for Chinese workers, which would incidentally increase the cost of goods made in China and make American goods more competitive. We had such an agreement signed about 10 years ago, but it was deliberately trashed by same people talking excessive tariffs these days ...

Instead, by using the stick instead of the carrot, we will no longer have any influence at all over these practices - they can just ignore the US market and move on.

 

[VSG]

Like using exploding Pagers?... I sure wish the US had the gnads to do that kind of stuff!

Exploding centrifuges, as one early and well-publicized example. But I'm aware of thousands of other instances that are not well-publicized and not widely known.

You say "corportate" as if to make a distinction. The US government can do everything you fear from the Chinese government, when the actions are against foreign citizens outside the US. For example capturing all data that goes over our "commercial" satellite systems. Why do you think some of these groups use pagers in the first place? It's not because they're hipsters and into 80's tech like pagers and typewriters and vinyl ...

 

[emoore]

Flip the script. How do you think every other country in the world feels about US software and hardware? Europe for example has been battling the US spyware giants for a long time. US companies are capturing huge quantities of personal data from people in every single other country, as well in the US. It's just hypocritical to say no one else is allowed to do that except for us.

Do you honestly thing the US would NOT use our home-grown hardware and software to launch cyber attacks against other countries? We have done so before you know.

Shutting us off from the rest of the world just clears the playing field for the competition to thrive in the 96% of the world that *doesn't* live in the US. They can live without us. But we will end up paying twice as much for everything, and our domestic industries will become increasingly less competitive in the world markets because our government will be heavily subsidizing domestic companies through tariffs and through bans on better products.

A lot of this resentment against China seems to be because they can do many things better than us. People seem to think that they only way that can happen is because they're "cheating". In reality, they're playing the same game we are, but they're doing a better job of it.

I think the resentment of China is because they are an adversary and that's why we focus on them vs. European countries.

 

[SANZC02]

A lot of this resentment against China seems to be because they can do many things better than us. People seem to think that they only way that can happen is because they're "cheating". In reality, they're playing the same game we are, but they're doing a better job of it.

My issue with China is they manipulate their currency to keep it extremely low compared to other nations making it hard for other nations to compete.

Average salaries for workers in China are between $200-$300 US dollars per month. It is hard for any country to compete with labor rates that low.

 

[VSG]

This law isn't banning Chinese car companies all it's saying is the software can only phone home to servers here and not allow access to CCP. Nothing stopping them from setting up shop here and play by our rules.

Nothing stopping them from putting in backdoors, either through the chips they manufacture or the US software that runs them. JUST LIKE WE DO. Are you suggesting that US companies should be forbidden from hiring Chinese nationals, or people who are of Chinese descent, because they might be associated with the predominant political party in China? Again, flip the script ...

By the way, it's not much of a stretch to say that "our rules" are that American companies are allowed to collect everything and anything and sell it to everyone and anyone for a profit. By that definition, China *is* currently playing by our rules.

 

[emoore]

Nothing stopping them from putting in backdoors, either through the chips they manufacture or the US software that runs them. JUST LIKE WE DO. Are you suggesting that US companies should be forbidden from hiring Chinese nationals, or people who are of Chinese descent, because they might be associated with the predominant political party in China? Again, flip the script ...

By the way, it's not much of a stretch to say that "our rules" are that American companies are allowed to collect everything and anything and sell it to everyone and anyone for a profit. By that definition, China *is* currently playing by our rules.

100% disagree that China is playing by our rules and that we are the doing to same thing as China to other countries.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Nothing stopping them from putting in backdoors, either through the chips they manufacture or the US software that runs them. JUST LIKE WE DO. Are you suggesting that US companies should be forbidden from hiring Chinese nationals, or people who are of Chinese descent, because they might be associated with the predominant political party in China? Again, flip the script ...

By the way, it's not much of a stretch to say that "our rules" are that American companies are allowed to collect everything and anything and sell it to everyone and anyone for a profit. By that definition, China *is* currently playing by our rules.

I don't think the US should be collecting data on innocent people either. I feel like there should be a constitutionally guaranteed right to privacy. I don't care who's doing it, they shouldn't be. The US not allowing China to violate our privacy and national security is a good thing. It would be better if they didn't do it either, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

[VSG]

I think the resentment of China is because they are an adversary and that's why we focus on them vs. European countries.

I think that's a little too simple. Russia was an adversary not so long ago, and we demonized them. But after we "won" the cold war we needed to find someone else to demonize. I think it's more fear and insecurity that has us making China into the bad guys. There are lots of other countries that are far worse in what they do to their own people, and lots of countries where they can only dream of being paid as well as the Chinese workers. Perspective. Our goal should be trying to lift the standards, not trying to keep these nations out of the club. In our history, we too did some awful things to workers and minorities and reaped the benefits of that. If these are things we believe in, then we should be helping other countries make the same transitions.

If we can't compete with low wage workers what's the surest way to fix that? Adding tariffs forces China to *reduce* costs in order to stay competetive in the US. That only *hurts* labor rates in China. If you try to keep them out of our markets, well as I said the US is 4% of the world's population. There are a lot of other places they can sell their goods without having to change their practices. And if it comes to that where will American companies be manufacturing things? It's hard to compete with really *high* labor costs too ...

Average salaries for workers in China are between $200-$300 US dollars per month. It is hard for any country to compete with labor rates that low.

I agree, and that's why we have to work with them to "float all boats". Promoting practices that lead to increased income and increased prosperity for all sides. Like insisting on higher standards for goods manufactured for our markets - that has been an extremely slow and difficult process because we are now more focused on punishing China through tariffs, which doesn't incentivize labor standards but does hurt American consumers and businesses who rely on that cheap labor.

 

[Nixapatfan]

Nothing stopping them from putting in backdoors, either through the chips they manufacture or the US software that runs them. JUST LIKE WE DO. Are you suggesting that US companies should be forbidden from hiring Chinese nationals, or people who are of Chinese descent, because they might be associated with the predominant political party in China? Again, flip the script ...

By the way, it's not much of a stretch to say that "our rules" are that American companies are allowed to collect everything and anything and sell it to everyone and anyone for a profit. By that definition, China *is* currently playing by our rules.

I'm not going to comment on the people thing as this isn't about individuals.

You do realize China has been doing the same things for years that you are against us doing. Did it really stifle their competitiveness? Why do you think it's okay for them to ban our companies or force them to keep data locally there but bad for us for protecting our interests. This really isn't about cheap goods or competitive market place, it's about who weilds power over who. Since I live here I'm all for us not bending over and taking it every time.

If both sides were playing fair it would be different argument.

 

[VSG]

I don't think the US should be collecting data on innocent people either. I feel like there should be a constitutionally guaranteed right to privacy. I don't care who's doing it, they shouldn't be. The US not allowing China to violate our privacy and national security is a good thing. It would be better if they we didn't do it either, but it's a step in the right direction.

I changed "they" to "we" - I think that's what you meant...

I generally agree with this, but I think it's a huge overstatement to say that TikTok threatens national security any more than any other popular app.

You know what *does* threaten national security? Increasing reliance on cryptocurrency. One little targeted hack, by *anyone*, foreign or domestic, could cause financial disaster, which threatens our economy and makes the victims of that disaster susceptible to recruitment by foreign interests.

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