Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

[SASSquatch]

Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

1.) It will limit innovation: Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v. CCS can support 1000v architecture. All of these companies developing 800v architecture for their next generation models, including Rivian, would effectively be forced to go back to 400 or 500v. That means that you will have a significantly slower charging speed vs. a comparable CCS system.

*Edit 1: As others have pointed out, the NACS system has a theoretical capability to achieve 1000v but there are no existing working Superchargers that have this capability and Elon Musk has repeatedly stated Tesla has no plans to support an 800v architecture. The issue is, Elon Musk and Tesla would have undue influence in deciding future architecture if they are allowed to immediately corner the NACS charging market, which they would, if everyone just switches to NACS.

*Edit 2: Even though NACS theoretically has the capability for bi-directional charging, meaning you can charge your home in case of a power outage, Elon Musk has stated he doesn't support that and has no plans to ever implement that. Tesla would be in a position to dictate new features if they control the NACS charging infrastructure.

2.) It will cost more: Elon Musk wants to make money off of you, and the OEMS could care less: Please remember this fact. Non-Tesla vehicles are charged significantly more for using a Supercharger than native Tesla owners. That will never change.

3.) It will create a tiered class system: Tesla will always, and I mean always, prioritize its own customers when it comes to user support and user experience. This is the only way they will incentivize future owners to buy Tesla in the future. When the proverbial shit hits the fan, Tesla will turn around and blame the OEM for not implementing a software change, or hardware update, etc. Welcome to the world of Apple (Tesla) vs. Android (CCS).

4.) It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience: All existing Tesla Superchargers are designed with cabling, stall positions, and architecture for Tesla vehicles. Non-Tesla vehicles do not have the ports in the correct position which means you can either not charge at all, or you have to block another charger by positioning your non-Tesla vehicle at an awkward angle. If your vehicle supports 800v architecture like the Kia EV6, you will have significantly decreased charging speed. This cannot be easily addressed by an adapter.

5.) It invites a madman into your vehicle: You are allowing Elon Musk, purveyor of chaos and who IMHO single handedly destroyed Twitter to control your charging experience. Elon Musk will always prioritize his interests and the interests of Tesla. Irrespective of any agreements, all other OEMs are competitors. Imagine the information he can obtain from your vehicle, driver history, specifications, charging curves, etc. by controlling the charging experience. He will absolutely use that information to the advantage of Tesla and to the detriment of every other OEM.

Edit 3: Changed title to better differentiate Tesla monopoly vs NACS standard

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[COdogman]

Hyundai‘s Ioniq 5 and Kia’s EV6 are capable of 800v charging. I doubt they are lining up behind Ford/ GM to send their customers to Tesla’s charging network where their car’s charging speed is wasted. Maybe it will happen anyway because automakers tend to be followers, not leaders, but I sure would be annoyed if I bought one of those vehicles and the brand switched to Tesla’s plug.

 

[SASSquatch]

Hyundai‘s Ioniq 5 and Kia’s EV6 are capable of 800v charging. I doubt they are lining up behind Ford/ GM to send their customers to Tesla’s charging network where their car’s charging speed is wasted. Maybe it will happen anyway because automakers tend to be followers, not leaders, but I sure would be annoyed if I bought one of those vehicles and the brand switched to Tesla’s plug.

800v architecture is the next logical step. I cannot fathom why going backwards would be good for the consumer.

If we are going to create an environment that supports scaling EV adoption, we need faster charging speeds and 800-1000v absolutely gets us there.

500v does not.

 

[sub]

Top 5 Reasons Switching to a NACS Port is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer:

1.) It will absolutely limit innovation: Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v. CCS can support 1000v architecture. All of these companies developing 800v architecture for their next generation models, including Rivian, would effectively be forced to go back to 400 or 500v. That means that you will have a significantly slower charging speed vs. a comparable CCS system.

Top 5 reasons why I know @SASSquatch has not bothered to read the specs of the standard they are criticizing.

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline;filename="North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf"

And then page 26 sets out that the max power is at least 1000v x 900A = 900KW. Can CCS match that?

 

[COdogman]

800v architecture is the next logical step. I cannot fathom why going backwards would be good for the consumer.

If we are going to create an environment that supports scaling EV adoption, we need faster charging speeds and 800-1000v absolutely gets us there.

500v does not.

I assume the Tesla chargers will improve and be capable of 800-1000v charging, but just like CCS has drawbacks, they aren’t there yet.

They must have a way to charge the 5 Tesla semis on the road at higher voltage otherwise it would take all day to charge one

 

[COdogman]

Top reasons why I know @SASSquatch has not bothered to read the specs of the standard they are criticizing.

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline;filename="North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf"

And then page 26 sets out that the max power is at least 1000v x 900A = 900KW. Can CCS match that?

How many 1000v superchargers exist right now?

https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/19/23689247/tesla-v4-supercharger-ev-first-specs-rollout

Here’s the world’s first Tesla V4 Supercharger charging a VW ID Buzz
The Tesla charging station just opened up to non-Tesla EVs. The 16 V4 stalls feature longer cables and, eventually, more power.
Thomas RickerApr 19, 2023 at 5:18 AM MDT

Tesla’s V4 Supercharger now supports non-Tesla EV charging, like this all-electric VW ID Buzz.Photo by Thomas Ricker / The Vergenone


Tesla has only one V4 Supercharger in the world — it opened in March to Tesla drivers and was recently made available to all EVs. The V4 Supercharger is located in Harderwijk, the Netherlands, which is just an hour away from my home in Amsterdam where Tesla has its EMEA headquarters.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Twitter was total and complete shit before Elon, if anything he made it better. Not such a partisan shithole. I agree with most of the rest.

 

[SASSquatch]

Top reasons why I know @SASSquatch has not bothered to read the specs of the standard they are criticizing.

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline;filename="North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf"

And then page 26 sets out that the max power is at least 1000v x 900A = 900KW. Can CCS match that?

Point me to a single 1000v Telsa Supercharger in the 17,000+ Superchargers in operation in the US.

Also point me to a single working demonstration of a theoretical maximum that Tesla has claimed.

Elon Musk claims shit that never comes to fruition.

See Cyber Truck.

 

[crashmtb]

When SAE, ASME/ANSI, ISO, DIN, CSA, etc make Tesla’s proprietary plugger part of a real standard, wake me. Otherwise CCS/J772 is juuuuust fine.

 

[mini2nut]

The government is butting in on Tesla charging adoption. More to follow.

https://electrek.co/2023/06/09/white-house-throws-cold-water-tesla-nacs-victory/

 

[sub]

How many 1000v superchargers exist right now?

You seem to be moving the target.

I thought your complaint was that NACS "by design, is limited to 500v" and that anyone who adopts the standard would "be forced to go back to 400 or 500v"?

Or is it just that Tesla has not built enough 1000 volt chargers for your liking?

Those are very different arguments.

And the second one doesn't hold much water either as an argument against using a NACS port since today's vehicles with NACS ports can charge at both Tesla stations and CCS stations and GM specifically said that their vehicles would continue to be able to use CCS chargers after the switch. If you want to continue to use Electrify America or other existing CCS charging stations, nothing about manufacturers switching to NACS ports will prevent you from doing so.

Also there are the same number of 1000 volt NACS chargers as there are 1000 volt CCS chargers along the routes i frequent for long distance road trips. There are a bunch of 500 volt NACS chargers on the route though.

 

[uthatch]

See Cyber Truck.

I'm super curious that many still don't believe the CT is coming. Yeah, behind schedule and all the other issues...but do you truly believe it's not coming?

I'm not be facetious either, I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

 

[DuoRivians]

The CCS oems should give Rivian a boatload of money to build out their RAN infrastructure—it seems like Rivian is the only one who can create reliable DCFC with CCS. Oh, and the reliability of the charger has nothing to do with the handle.

 

[uthatch]

The CCS oems should give Rivian a boatload of money to build out their RAN infrastructure—it seems like Rivian is the only one who can create reliable DCFC with CCS. Oh, and the reliability of the charger has nothing to do with the handle.

UnfortunatelyI've been to a RAN station that was not working well. One stall down, another putting out 30kW. Equally unfortunate, it's the only one I've been to. I'm not entirely confident the RAN will be much better than other DC brands after some time, but I'm certainly hopeful it will be.

 

[DuoRivians]

UnfortunatelyI've been to a RAN station that was not working well. One stall down, another putting out 30kW. Equally unfortunate, it's the only one I've been to. I'm not entirely confident the RAN will be much better than other DC brands after some time, but I'm certainly hopeful it will be.

Large majority of uses I see seem to be great for Rivian drivers

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