V2V, V2H, V2X - what's the holdup? Where are the deets?

[Jerm]

Getting tired of looking at social media posts of dead battery EVs on the road with a portable generator attached to mock them... not sure why people feel compelled to video any EV that runs out of fuel but not ICE, but it is true that it would be quite unpleasant.
Would love to start seeing videos of one EV transferring power to another at a high rate (V2V) instead someday to start countering that caveat with a capability.

In any case, I don't even have the details yet on how it would work. I have so many questions. Straight up DC I assume, but how fast? Does it slow if charge levels aren't far apart? Possible to charge past equalization point? Or maybe I've got that all wrong and there's an inverter(s) involved?

I hear so much about products out there, and I understand V2G may see regulatory delays, but I don't know what's holding back V2H or V2V. Is Rivian going to offer a bi-directional charger, V2V cables, etc? What's the plan and when will it happen?

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[Lizardo]

Honestly, its probably not a big priority for them. As much as I'd love it as well.

I think continued improvements to drive, user experience, safety are probably bigger software priorities at this point

 

[Jerm]

I'm truly hoping that those are separately allocated teams in the software space. If software or other feature efforts within Rivian were that serialized, we've got much worse problems. I'm optimistic that that is not the case though, and the plan just hasn't been shared effectively.

 

[SACDFJC]

Is there a big enough use case here to warrant the investment? FOr me, I doubt I would ever do V2V. Initially I wanted V2H, but after the power went out this past winter I ran 2 extension cords (1 to the fridge, 1 to lights) and got by I'm not even interested in anything more than what I have now. IMO, I'd rather have the EV Charging companies focus every single bit of resources on expanding and making the charging experience better.

 

[Dark-Fx]

CCS spec for V2X is still very new, there's nothing commercially available right now that follows the specification.

 

[Jerm]

Yes- it absolutely is a big enough use case, even if not to you individually. Look at Ford sprinting ahead in this area.
Ford Power-on-board also made huge sales headlines for them during the Texas winter power outage a couple years back. As a stockholder and an R1T owner, I'm interested in Rivian succeeding here.
Especially worth the focus if there's a chance Rivian can be first to market with a differentiating feature like V2H. For anyone rural who frequently spend $10-15k on a home standby generator, this potentially weighs that much in price advantage favor for an EV. (any EV that does this)
For the EV that is the first and only, for however long that lasts, that's a huge deal. It's an extraordinarily good rationale in the calculus some people have to work to shell out the big bucks for an EV, particularly a Rivian.

 

[Jerm]

Actually- looks like I might be wrong already about first-to-market opportunity.
https://chargers.ford.com/products/ford-charge-station-pro

 

[teddyang]

Is there a big enough use case here to warrant the investment? FOr me, I doubt I would ever do V2V. Initially I wanted V2H, but after the power went out this past winter I ran 2 extension cords (1 to the fridge, 1 to lights) and got by I'm not even interested in anything more than what I have now. IMO, I'd rather have the EV Charging companies focus every single bit of resources on expanding and making the charging experience better.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/08/california-ponders-v2g-mandate/

I think that makes a compelling reason to be up and running and ready to go....

 

[Jerm]

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/08/california-ponders-v2g-mandate/

I think that makes a compelling reason to be up and running and ready to go....

Thank you for mentioning that- yes, there is already a bill drafted: 2027.
https://sd09.senate.ca.gov/news/202...onal-charging-mandatory-new-electric-vehicles

And that's for V2G- a larger challenge than V2H or V2V in terms of regulation.

(*love* that this forum is so responsive btw)

 

[SANZC02]

Yes- it absolutely is a big enough use case, even if not to you individually. Look at Ford sprinting ahead in this area.
Ford Power-on-board also made huge sales headlines for them during the Texas winter power outage a couple years back. As a stockholder and an R1T owner, I'm interested in Rivian succeeding here.
Especially worth the focus if there's a chance Rivian can be first to market with a differentiating feature like V2H. For anyone rural who frequently spend $10-15k on a home standby generator, this potentially weighs that much in price advantage favor for an EV. (any EV that does this)
For the EV that is the first and only, for however long that lasts, that's a huge deal. It's an extraordinarily good rationale in the calculus some people have to work to shell out the big bucks for an EV, particularly a Rivian.

I may look at V2H if Rivian implements it but just for reference that 10 to 15k you reference is mostly for the permitting and required electrical infrastructure required for the home to get that in place. Most guesstimates I have seen to install a bidirectional charger with the required grid cutoff will still set people back 5 or 10k.

If having backup power is important the benefit of the vehicle is the amount of power that would be available but for me I installed a power-wall with my solar system.

 

[Seartrip]

Just a thought. Creating standards for V2V across manufacturers is difficult, but it would be cool if Rivian enabled a V2V capability for its vehicles, and then via the app allowed people to opt-in to a user-supported emergency charge capability. Meaning if your batteries ran too low, you could request an emergency charge from another Rivian owner, and they could meet you and give you enough charge to get to a real charger. As more Rivians get on the road this has increasing benefit. Rivian owners helping Rivian owners, essentially.

Just an idea.

 

[Jerm]

I may look at V2H if Rivian implements it but just for reference that 10 to 15k you reference is mostly for the permitting and required electrical infrastructure required for the home to get that in place. Most guesstimates I have seen to install a bidirectional charger with the required grid cutoff will still set people back 5 or 10k.

If having backup power is important the benefit of the vehicle is the amount of power that would be available but for me I installed a power-wall with my solar system.

I've priced them, and you're not wrong about the extra cost for generator hookups. However, there is significantly less infrastructure to put in place for connecting a bidirectional charger and ATS that would reduce the relative cost. No propane lines (assuming propane fueled), outdoor concrete pad, lines, etc, periodic servicing, etc. And after that, the generator itself running $5k - $7k to start is the budget left for a bidirectional charger and associated hookups. I don't expect it to be anywhere near that.
Powerwall would be ideal and stays home when the vehicle is gone, but otherwise it doesn't compare in cost effectiveness. I tried running those numbers and it doesn't pencil out.
Ford's bidirectional charger is $1300ish I think, but I expect an ATS would have to be added as well, which wouldn't be nothing. I want a generator, but am holding off in anticipation of being able to V2H instead and double duty on that EV investment.

 

[teddyang]

Tell me if i'm crazy or my math is off but a powerwall is about ~$10k for 1 powerwall that has 13.5 kwh. A Rivian (and F-150 lightning for that matter) has 135 kwh of energy. The equivalent in powerwalls would be $100k. So if i had V2H for the same cost why wouldn't i just just buy a second vehicle as my fulltime battery backup?

 

[Jimi]

I totally agree. Rivian has assured us their vehicles are bi-directional compliant, but where is the hardware? My R1S is supposed to arrive by year's end so I have emailed every V2h/V2V/V2G manufacturer to get info, pricing, etc. No one has responded. My garage is 240 wired from a prior vehicle and I have robust solar capacity. But where is the hardware!!! I think powerwalls are over priced-over rated, especially given the potential for bi-directional service with an EBV.

 

[Ralph]

Actually- looks like I might be wrong already about first-to-market opportunity.
https://chargers.ford.com/products/ford-charge-station-pro

Is this minor detail still relevant? If so, add another $3900.

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