Dont mess with the PWS on your EV.

[SASSquatch]

You would have idiots run around in Rock crawl mode on paved streets.

Practically speaking I think you'd need a geofence.

Practically speaking, wouldn't that solve the issue? We already geofence drones. The R1T would be capable of geofencing and that would alleviate the need for PWS in a situation that clearly doesn't demand it and negates some of the benefit of having an electric vehicle in nature - preserving and enjoying the ambient sounds that otherwise would be droned out by an ICE or a functionally limited PWS (in that environment).

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[moosehead]

Reading these posts makes me realize how much that I have to re-learn about driving EV’s. Seriously, thank you all for this discussion.

As a child of the 70’s Muscle Car era, I’ve always loved fast and loud cars, and spent considerable disposable income maximizing both features.

Soon, I’m going to be driving a vehicle that dwarfs the fastest cars I’ve ever had, yet is silent. It will also weigh a couple thousand pounds more than the fastest cars I’ve ever had.

Safety is going to be a big deal.

 

[SeaGeo]

Practically speaking, wouldn't that solve the issue? We already geofence drones. The R1T would be capable of geofencing and that would alleviate the need for PWS in a situation that clearly doesn't demand it and negates some of the benefit of having an electric vehicle in nature - preserving and enjoying the ambient sounds that otherwise would be droned out by an ICE or a functionally useless PWS (in that setting).

Personally I think so. We need to lobby Congress to modify the law for that though. Which is why my normal response to posts of people wanting Rivian to disable the sound offroad is: "That's illegal, Rivian can't. Call your representative."

 

[lostpacket]

The problem is nanny state politicians with time on their hands to pass these activist regulations instead of doing their elected work to, I dunno, pay nurses and teachers properly or fix a bridge or something.

The problem is people are idiots and get hit by buses and motorcycles when they step out into traffic with their nose in their phone … they all need to get their head out of their apps.

From your other posts on these forums I get the sense that you have some competence with complex and technical systems so I would assume you appreciate the difference between anecdote and data.

The National Federation for the Blind lobbied for this with studies that had data showing this was an actual problem. Many of these studies were conducted 2007-2009, before smartphones were widespread. And if pedestrian distraction were the only cause they would not have seen a discrepancy between EV and ICE.

The EU, US, Japan, China, and the UK all have regulations on this.

I can appreciate you come at this from a perspective of personal responsibility and that should always be important. But accidents happen and I'd like to be sure we keep everyone alive before assigning blame.

 

[SASSquatch]

Personally I think so. We need to lobby Congress to modify the law for that though. Which is why my normal response to posts of people wanting Rivian to disable the sound offroad is: "That's illegal, Rivian can't. Call your representative."

Agreed. In the absence of a nuanced regulation, people will always find a way to circumvent the requirement. In this case, as simply as using tape to cover the speaker.

Also, there is no effective enforcement mechanism since EVs up to a certain date (2020?) were not regulated to require a PWS system. I say 2020 because my 2019 i3s did not have one and my 2021 did.

That also means that the majority of EVs on the road pose a significant threat to pedestrians hearing/vision impaired or otherwise since the number of EVs produced (worldwide) from 2013-2020 exceeds those that were produced and required PWS from 2020 through today.

There are no easy answers to any of these issues and the complicated nature will require considerable thoughtfulness and advocacy in order to develop effective regulations.

 

[SeaGeo]

In this case, as simply as using tape to cover the speaker.

Agreed. That being said, I don't really blame congress for not thinking about "hey, what about when you're driving around on a forestry road."

And tbf, I think Ryan is trying to be pragmatic and reasonable about this. It's really the people that want to cut the noise completely and pretend that doesn't pose a risk to the blind get my a little frustrated.

 

[SASSquatch]

From your other posts on these forums I get the sense that you have some competence with complex and technical systems so I would assume you appreciate the difference between anecdote and data.

The National Federation for the Blind lobbied for this with studies that had data showing this was an actual problem. Many of these studies were conducted 2007-2009, before smartphones were widespread. And if pedestrian distraction were the only cause they would not have seen a discrepancy between EV and ICE.

The EU, US, Japan, China, and the UK all have regulations on this.

I can appreciate you come at this from a perspective of personal responsibility and that should always be important. But accidents happen and I'd like to be sure we keep everyone alive before assigning blame.

At some level, lostpacket, data does not matter anymore and the effectiveness and reach of lobbying groups does.

Case in point. Despite overwhelming evidence that states without motorcycle helmet laws have significantly higher rates of death and serious injury to motorcyclists, only 18 states and the District of Columbia have universal motorcycle helmet laws that require all riders to wear helmets.

In many states laws existed, and were repealed by pressure from the powerful anti-helmet lobby groups who wrote op-eds trying to convince folks that more pedestrians die per year from being hit by vehicles than motorcyclists.

Lest we point out that as a percentage of all pedestrians, a fractional number are injured and killed relative to the percentage of all motorcyclists.

 

[the long way downunder]

From your other posts on these forums I get the sense that you have some competence with complex and technical systems so I would assume you appreciate the difference between anecdote and data.

The National Federation for the Blind lobbied for this with studies that had data showing this was an actual problem. Many of these studies were conducted 2007-2009, before smartphones were widespread. And if pedestrian distraction were the only cause they would not have seen a discrepancy between EV and ICE.

The EU, US, Japan, China, and the UK all have regulations on this.

I can appreciate you come at this from a perspective of personal responsibility and that should always be important. But accidents happen and I'd like to be sure we keep everyone alive before assigning blame.

I'm not really trying to argue a case, my opinion is it's just more bureaucratic self-fulfilling existence.
If people were getting wiped out in their thousands by quiet vehicles (my 2005 Prius was damn quiet) then sure, but no … in context, people are getting killed in their thousands by licensed guns in homes, people are still smoking tobacco, still eating sugary, fatty food, still leaving high school with pitiful education not sufficient to equip them for life in the world around them … etc., etc.., : )

 

[Ladiver]

Now I am terrified of driving a Rivian (not really). I currently drive a 1-ton, long bed, crew cab, 4WD, diesel truck and have had bicyclists and pedestrians walk in front of me. I also drive a Corvette Z06 with a nice little exhaust growl. That too has had a few close encounters.

If people can’t see, hear, or feel those, I should definitely sell my spot in line.

 

[lostpacket]

At some level, lostpacket, data does not matter anymore and the effectiveness and reach of lobbying groups does.

Case in point. Despite overwhelming evidence that states without motorcycle helmet laws have significantly higher rates of death and serious injury to motorcyclists, only 18 states and the District of Columbia have universal motorcycle helmet laws that require all riders to wear helmets.

Sure but there is something to be said for the fact that in that case the state is (mostly*) protecting people from themselves, whereas here it's protecting people from other people.

in context, people are getting killed in their thousands by licensed guns in homes, people are still smoking tobacco, still eating sugary, fatty food, still leaving high school with pitiful education not sufficient to equip them for life in the world around them

I am all for fixing those things as well but I'll take any small win.

 

[lostpacket]

Now I am terrified of driving a Rivian (not really). I currently drive a 1-ton, long bed, crew cab, 4WD, diesel truck and have had bicyclists and pedestrians walk in front of me. I also drive a Corvette Z06 with a nice little exhaust growl. That too has had a few close encounters.

If people can’t see, hear, or feel those, I should definitely sell my spot in line.

I've only gotten into cars in the past few years with the rise of EVs but I cant deny how visceral the sound of the Audi R8's naturally aspirated V10 is. (do a lot of naturally aspirated big engines sound like this?)

@ about 7:39

 

[Ladiver]

I've only gotten into cars in the past few years with the rise of EVs but I cant deny how visceral the sound of the Audi R8's naturally aspirated V10 is. (do a lot of naturally aspirated big engines sound like this?)

@ about 7:39

Yes, lots of the big engines have a deep, rumbly sound. The Porsche uses a slightly different type of engine which gives it more of a whine, but also a much higher red-line for RPMs.

GM switched motors between the C7 and C8 but spent a very long time tuning the sound of the exhaust. Harley Davidson does the same with their motorcycles.

 

[SeaGeo]

(do a lot of naturally aspirated big engines sound like this?)

Well, something like that. The loss of that visceral sound is part of the reason performance EVs just... connect a little less with the soul.

 

[the long way downunder]

...and the visually impaired who can't see or hear an EV that's moving slowly with a large amount if background sound...

The point is to avoid the hard to predict encounters.

Those people are already dead because the Prius has been around for 20+ years and it's damn quiet.
It's the perverse self-involvement of bureaucrats and "won't anyone think about the children" activists with time on their hands to imagine fearsome things, it's not a real problem. Is there even one case of a pedestrian injury related to a quiet vehicle?
How many cases of "incompetent driver neglected reasonable caution" … for these Darwin Award would-be recipients, the self-driving autonomous vehicle can't come soon enough.
Google says NHTSA says there's 2400 "preventable injuries" per year (2016.) That's a feeble statistic.
A better all-round solution would be actual driver's tests instead of multiple-choice quizzes allowing a 20% error rate as a "pass" and a driving test that allows for 15 errors (any one of which could kill a pedestrian) and still pass. When was the last time you saw an incompetent driver? When was the last time you drove more than 15 minutes without seeing the negligent driving that does kill people (tailgating and erratic lane-changes are more deadly than speeding, drowsiness is more deadly than alcohol impairment … do we eventually have driver-monitoring cameras (already happening) and breath-testing equipment (currently only punitive) and agree that's just the price to pay for living in a world with rounded corners so we don't bump ourselves?
Each of these small concessions paves the way to larger impositions, preventing self-driving or delaying the ban of fossil fuels or any other contrived "protection."

 

[SeaGeo]

Those people are already dead because the Prius has been around for 20+ years and it's damn quiet.

My nearly totally blind parents nor the visual impaired friends they had around while I was growing up aren't dead. However, I've also been with them when they haven't heard a vehicle like a Prius. They shouldn't need to rely upon me to pull them back, or be entirely reliant on the driver being perfect.

I can get as annoyed by nanny State discussions as the next guy, but putting a little noise in a car so people who otherwise would struggle to keep themselves safe isn't unreasonable. Do you also bitch about direct sound cross walk sounds? Wheelchair ramps on corners?

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