No 800V architecture for Max Pack - confirmed

[Monkey]

It's still going to be years before the fast charging network becomes useful, reliable and plentiful so who really cares about the 800v at this point.

Yep... Only reason to care about 800V is if you plan to keep the vehicle for a long time (7+ years). And even then, I'm not so sure. And it's not like 800V has any real meaning to those of us who do 90% of our charging at home.

I'm a Quad Max Pack bag-holder myself and the way I've interpreted the recent email is that if we continue to pass on going to a Large Pack or the dual-motor Max options, we'll eventually get the chance to purchase the Quad Motor Max Pack when it finally arrives. However, there will be no price incentives as that vehicle configuration is now a future possibility using updated motors and architecture. So we would effectively be throwing away our early reservation by waiting.

I took delivery of my F-150 Lightning last week and the truck is great and while it definitely needs more range, the size and utility specifics fit my needs better than the R1T. I'm waiting for the new options to appear in the Rivian configurator to play with, but I think I'm changing my Max Pack R1T order over to an enhanced performance dual-motor R1S that I can get later this year or early next year.

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[Dark-Fx]

It's still going to be years before the fast charging network becomes useful, reliable and plentiful so who really cares about the 800v at this point.

Lol, okay. In our 3400 mile trip with the Hummer, All of our DCFC charge stops but two of them were on 350kW stations that pulled a faster rate than the fastest speed the Rivian can do. On the ones that weren't 350kW stations, it still charged faster than the Rivian would because the stations still provided the same amps that the Rivian would accept, but at ~1.6-1.8x the voltage.

 

[nfrank]

I've cancelled my pre-order for the R1T. I'm going to get another ICE vehicle, maybe a Tundra or Sequoia, until EV towing range and charging infrastructure are more robust.

This is the the "chicken and egg" situation we're in here. Someone is very interested in an EV, but doesn't buy one because the charging infrastructure isn't there yet. The charging infrastructure isn't there yet because people are still buying ICE vehicles over EVs.

I have my R1T and a diesel 3-series wagon. The wagon gets 45mpg and has a highway range of over 700 miles. That was my road trip vehicle. Now I plan on taking the Rivian on road trips and using the DCFC networks to try to promote the need for them. I know it's harder to do, but we need to show the need for a DCFC network and make it appeal to those building them that it's a profitable venture.

 

[Indy avocado]

I think for people doing any sort of longer distance towing that the Silverado EV is going to end up being king of the hill for a while. GM just has to start shipping their Ultium vehicles at volume.

Totally agree. That was my assumption when I switched from Max to Large.

It's still going to be years before the fast charging network becomes useful, reliable and plentiful so who really cares about the 800v at this point.

800V would help maximize how much we can get out of some charging stalls and likely reduce heating and charger errors. The 800V cars seem to have a much easier time charging at 200+kw.

 

[Goose]

This is the the "chicken and egg" situation we're in here. Someone is very interested in an EV, but doesn't buy one because the charging infrastructure isn't there yet. The charging infrastructure isn't there yet because people are still buying ICE vehicles over EVs.

I have my R1T and a diesel 3-series wagon. The wagon gets 45mpg and has a highway range of over 700 miles. That was my road trip vehicle. Now I plan on taking the Rivian on road trips and using the DCFC networks to try to promote the need for them. I know it's harder to do, but we need to show the need for a DCFC network and make it appeal to those building them that it's a profitable venture.

That's a fair assessment, however, this is not some fringe technology with mild interest. It is clear the public and federal agencies want EV's to become the dominant personal transport vehicle.

I live in Raleigh and will need to tow a 3000lb boat/trailer 151 miles to my in-laws beach house on the coast very frequently. While based on my calculations from towing my last boat (similar weight class if smaller boat) with my 4Runner I could probably make the drive with only about 5% remaining in the pack. That would be on a warm day with good weather and wind and doesn't include the weight of our luggage, fishing tackle, 3 people, and 2 dogs. If you pull up plug share you will notice VERY limited CCS fast chargers East of Raleigh. The only "fast" charger on I-40 East is a 50kW at a random bbq shack and it looks to be always in use.

The 400 mile battery pack might fit my needs but I'm not spending $94K for last gen (re; 400v) EV architecture.

 

[Monkey]

Lol, okay. In our 3400 mile trip with the Hummer, All of our DCFC charge stops but two of them were on 350kW stations that pulled a faster rate than the fastest speed the Rivian can do. On the ones that weren't 350kW stations, it still charged faster than the Rivian would because the stations still provided the same amps that the Rivian would accept, but at ~1.8x the voltage.

What magical charge stations are you getting good rates at? I have no trouble finding 350kW EA stations, but rarely do I get more than 50 to 60 kW out of them... It's maddening. And frustrating to wander around at WalMart for almost an hour and only get enough charge to make it to the next charge station... rinse and repeat. I do know of a couple in my region that consistently work well, but most do not. EA's hardware is shite. ChargePoint on the other hand has been great and delivers promised rates consistently, but they're all slower chargers -- mostly 50kW that I've encountered. Tesla's V3 chargers have been bullet-proof. In some ways I wish they would open their network but at the same time, if they did, all their customers would be drowned in the wake of other vehicles coming to charge. Many Tesla superchargers are already way too busy with just Teslas using them.

Picked up my F-150 Lightning last week... It is supposed to have the max charge rate capped at 155kW, but stopping on my road trip back home at a known good EA charger, I was seeing rates peaking up to 167kW. Ended up making three more stops than I wanted on my 750 mile trip because EA chargers were struggling to deliver more than 45kW or so... Calling EA a couple times just got me excuses like "it's because of the cold" or whatever. My wife and I encountered two ladies in an R1T in Ogallala, NE at the 350kW EA chargers / WalMart. I was getting just under 50kW charge rate, they were getting under 30kW just two spaces over and had been talking with EA a bunch already when we arrived. EA had reset chargers and made all sorts of lame excuses, but it was about 40 degrees and sunny and... They stopped at Ft. Morgan, CO to charge same as us and both of us were getting great charge rates there -- that's the known good charger I mentioned.

Also none of the EA card readers would handle NFC/tap transactions so I had to call EA every time to get my member rate. Once again, they were blaming on "cold weather" but it seems nearly all EA stations nation-wide would not accept NFC or tap to pay this past weekend. Hmmm...

Sorry for the rant, I guess all I'm saying is that EA chargers suck. And it might be a while until the market is proliferated with good alternatives.

 

[nfrank]

That's a fair assessment, however, this is not some fringe technology with mild interest. It is clear the public and federal agencies want EV's to become the dominant personal transport vehicle.

I live in Raleigh and will need to tow a 3000lb boat/trailer 151 miles to my in-laws beach house on the coast very frequently. While based on my calculations from towing my last boat (similar weight class if smaller boat) with my 4Runner I could probably make the drive with only about 5% remaining in the pack. That would be on a warm day with good weather and wind and doesn't include the weight of our luggage, fishing tackle, 3 people, and 2 dogs. If you pull up plug share you will notice VERY limited CCS fast chargers East of Raleigh. The only "fast" charger on I-40 East is a 50kW at a random bbq shack and it looks to be always in use.

The 400 mile battery pack might fit my needs but I'm not spending $94K for last gen (re; 400v) EV architecture.

I understand where you're coming from here. I do wonder if a Large pack Rivian can take your boat 151 miles though. While I don't have a trailer now, I've probably towed 100k miles in my life everything from a 8,000lb camper to a 3,000lb boat. With the camper I'd go from 20mpg hwy to 9mpg, but with the boat I'd only go down to 15mpg. I think the aero difference was huge (don't worry much about luggage and people/dog weight). It would be nice if you could find an R1T owner to tow your boat and see what you get for range.

 

[Dark-Fx]

What magical charge stations are you getting good rates at? I have no trouble finding 350kW EA stations, but rarely do I get more than 50 to 60 kW out of them... It's maddening. And frustrating to wander around at WalMart for almost an hour and only get enough charge to make it to the next charge station... rinse and repeat. I do know of a couple in my region that consistently work well, but most do not. EA's hardware is shite. ChargePoint on the other hand has been great and delivers promised rates consistently, but they're all slower chargers -- mostly 50kW that I've encountered. Tesla's V3 chargers have been bullet-proof. In some ways I wish they would open their network but at the same time, if they did, all their customers would be drowned in the wake of other vehicles coming to charge. Many Tesla superchargers are already way too busy with just Teslas using them.

Picked up my F-150 Lightning last week... It is supposed to have the max charge rate capped at 155kW, but stopping on my road trip back home at a known good EA charger, I was seeing rates peaking up to 167kW. Ended up making three more stops than I wanted on my 750 mile trip because EA chargers were struggling to deliver more than 45kW or so... Calling EA a couple times just got me excuses like "it's because of the cold" or whatever. My wife and I encountered two ladies in an R1T in Ogallala, NE at the 350kW EA chargers / WalMart. I was getting just under 50kW charge rate, they were getting under 30kW just two spaces over and had been talking with EA a bunch already when we arrived. EA had reset chargers and made all sorts of lame excuses, but it was about 40 degrees and sunny and... They stopped at Ft. Morgan, CO to charge same as us and both of us were getting great charge rates there -- that's the known good charger I mentioned.

Also none of the EA card readers would handle NFC/tap transactions so I had to call EA every time to get my member rate. Once again, they were blaming on "cold weather" but it seems nearly all EA stations nation-wide would not accept NFC or tap to pay this past weekend. Hmmm...

Sorry for the rant, I guess all I'm saying is that EA chargers suck. And it might be a while until the market is proliferated with good alternatives.

Started in Metro Detroit area.

EA stops were Dayton OH, Louisville KY, Bowling Green KY, Alabaster AL, Valdosta GA, Lake City FL, Bushnell FL, Brunswick GA, Walterboro SC, Wytheville VA, Cambridge OH, Sheffield OH, Genoa, OH.

Chargepoints were both the 125kw split stations, pulled 105- 117kW depending on charge level. Leesburg GA, Fort Myers FL.

EVGo stations were Bradenton FL, Jacksonville FL.

Only station we had encountered that was full was the Bradenton EA, which we ended up skipping in favor of the EVGo one.

There was an FPL charger I couldn't get working as my phone refused to scan their QR code into the FPL app, so ended up having to backtrack for an EA station in Lake City, but it was after we already checked into the hotel there and I was on my own, so not a big deal overall.

We waited a couple minutes at one EA station for the 350kW station to free up since someone sitting in a mercedes was at 98% when we arrived. Probably save 30 minutes by not using the 150kW station for that charge since we were pretty low and needed a significant charge to make the next stop.

 

[Tahoe Man]

This is the the "chicken and egg" situation we're in here. Someone is very interested in an EV, but doesn't buy one because the charging infrastructure isn't there yet. The charging infrastructure isn't there yet because people are still buying ICE vehicles over EVs.

I have my R1T and a diesel 3-series wagon. The wagon gets 45mpg and has a highway range of over 700 miles. That was my road trip vehicle. Now I plan on taking the Rivian on road trips and using the DCFC networks to try to promote the need for them. I know it's harder to do, but we need to show the need for a DCFC network and make it appeal to those building them that it's a profitable venture.

The problem is, it's not a profitable venture. That's why there is no build out. How does someone make money having to buy and install the fast chargers where installation procurement cost about $80k per charger.... In addition this is not what the future of travel should be, having to stop for an hour at parking lots. The whole setup is a mess.

 

[Goose]

I understand where you're coming from here. I do wonder if a Large pack Rivian can take your boat 151 miles though. While I don't have a trailer now, I've probably towed 100k miles in my life everything from a 8,000lb camper to a 3,000lb boat. With the camper I'd go from 20mpg hwy to 9mpg, but with the boat I'd only go down to 15mpg. I think the aero difference was huge (don't worry much about luggage and people/dog weight). It would be nice if you could find an R1T owner to tow your boat and see what you get for range.

Based on videos/reviews I've seen online of people towing similar weights (which is actually hard to find, apparently people are obsessed with loading up 10K on trailer and towing with the Rivian) the rough average is 1.5m/kWh. That would give a range of about 185 miles when factoring in the battery buffer and the usable 125kWh battery pack. This doesn't include the fact that I would spec the 20" A/T's (I deer hunt and we enjoy camping, hiking, and driving on the beach, gotta have the A/T's).

 

[JayinNJ]

It's still going to be years before the fast charging network becomes useful, reliable and plentiful so who really cares about the 800v at this point.

EA can support 800V already

 

[Tahoe Man]

EA can support 800V already

I understand that, my point being the charging reliability and overall experience trump's the benefit of a higher voltage charge.

The first thing that needs to be dealt with before anyone starts touting 800v system is dependable charging as advertised.

 

[Kieran]

Lol, okay. In our 3400 mile trip with the Hummer, All of our DCFC charge stops but two of them were on 350kW stations that pulled a faster rate than the fastest speed the Rivian can do. On the ones that weren't 350kW stations, it still charged faster than the Rivian would because the stations still provided the same amps that the Rivian would accept, but at ~1.6-1.8x the voltage.

You own a Hummer EV, or was this an extended test drive? I'm very curious of the total time to charge that enormous battery at DCFC stations while on long road trips. Not peak rates, but average \ total time to charge from say 20%-90% or something like that. Thanks...

 

[Kieran]

This is the the "chicken and egg" situation we're in here. Someone is very interested in an EV, but doesn't buy one because the charging infrastructure isn't there yet. The charging infrastructure isn't there yet because people are still buying ICE vehicles over EVs.

This is what Tesla saw as the primary problem early on, and why from almost day one developing the supercharger network was priority #1, even over development of the vehicles themselves. It worked for Tesla. Not sure about the rollout for everyone else. I don't see Rivian making the same prioritization and investment in their network, and I don't see any other brand building their own network at all; which may not be necessary if networks like EA actually get built and work. But it's kind of a mess of uncertainty and inconsistency right now, unless you drive a Tesla (and/or Tesla truly opens up their network to all).

 

[Dark-Fx]

You own a Hummer EV, or was this an extended test drive? I'm very curious of the total time to charge that enormous battery at DCFC stations while on long road trips. Not peak rates, but average \ total time to charge from say 20%-90% or something like that. Thanks...

Owned. Sold it after my R1T came in because the Hummer didn't fit what I wanted an EV truck for. The bed on the Hummer being so high off the ground made it difficult to use as a truck, IMO.

We took the trip to give it a fair shake, and honestly it was great for the trip, but it drives like it looks. It's fast but far, far from sporty. If GM had made me hold onto it for a year, I'm certain I'd still end up selling it when the year was over.

Hummer charges fastest until somewhere in the 60% range where it significantly falls off. If we weren't stopping for an extended period of time, 20-25 minutes tended to be the sweet spot for charge time. Then hop to the next one.

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