Opt-Out of Arbitration and Class Action Waiver!

[Q-Dub23]

Hi All,

The Rivian Purchase Agreement requires us to waive our right to go to court (in favor of binding arbitration) and our right to bring a class action. This is pretty standard practice for big corporations. They would much prefer to have an arbitrator (that they pay and from an organization they select) adjudicating disputes than a court. Similarly, they don't want owners being able to share legal costs and combine their suit on the same or similar issue through a class action (betting that if the issue is small enough no one purchaser would sue).

Rivian's terms and conditions let you opt-out of both waivers. I did. O can always agree to arbitrate later but I personally want the choice.

If you've recently signed a purchase agreement, opting out is as simple as sending an email pursuant (see Rivian's T&Cs). Give it some thought as this is a really big purchase.

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[Donald Stanfield]

A few things, this sort of thing doesn't matter on huge issues or issues of safety because no waiver will protect you from willful negligence. So if a situation occurs like Ford's pinto where it turns out Rivian knew of a deadly issue and didn't correct it because of cost their arbitration clause wouldn't save them.

This really only protects Rivian from smaller issues and minor disputes and in those situations its better as an owner to get rid of the vehicle and cut your losses than go to court against a company with far greater legal resources than you have. These types of things aren't made to shield Rivian from individuals more to protect them from death of a thousand cuts, basically being inundated with suits over penny ante garbage like minor panel gaps.

The other thing to consider is even by opting out if most people did sign your pool of people who could join a class action is small and therefore the individual decision you make holds very little significance in the grand scheme of things. For me, being someone who has invoked the legal system in business dealings in the past, it is a system of last resort or a system that should only be used for major issues.

Of course this is only one man's opinion, not legal advice.

 

[Q-Dub23]

A few things, this sort of thing doesn't matter on huge issues or issues of safety because no waiver will protect you from willful negligence. So if a situation occurs like Ford's pinto where it turns out Rivian knew of a deadly issue and didn't correct it because of cost their arbitration clause wouldn't save them.

This really only protects Rivian from smaller issues and minor disputes and in those situations its better as an owner to get rid of the vehicle and cut your losses than go to court against a company with far greater legal resources than you have. These types of things aren't made to shield Rivian from individuals more to protect them from death of a thousand cuts, basically being inundated with suits over penny ante garbage like minor panel gaps.

The other thing to consider is even by opting out if most people did sign your pool of people who could join a class action is small and therefore the individual decision you make holds very little significance in the grand scheme of things. For me, being someone who has invoked the legal system in business dealings in the past, it is a system of last resort or a system that should only be used for major issues.

Of course this is only one man's opinion, not legal advice.

Not sure I see a downside identified in your response to sending the email. It is of course true that there are vehicle safety and consumer protection laws that you can't disclaim, plus wilfull misconduct, gross negligence and fraud. But, to the point of my message, there are many, many minor issues that could fall short of that (tonneau cover? Hands free driving?). The question is whether you want to preserve a choice on both resort to courts and class action at the expense of 90 seconds. It's just my choice but I saw zero downside.

 

[mkg3]

... Give it some thought as this is a really big purchase.

...Its just an auto and an individual perspective, if it is a big purchase or not.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Not sure I see a downside identified in your response to sending the email. It is of course true that there are vehicle safety and consumer protection laws that you can't disclaim, plus wilfull misconduct, gross negligence and fraud. But, to the point of my message, there are many, many minor issues that could fall short of that (tonneau cover? Hands free driving?). The question is whether you want to preserve a choice on both resort to courts and class action at the expense of 90 seconds. It's just my choice but I saw zero downside.

Not so much a downside as it not mattering a whole lot.

 

[NineElectrics]

I did this. You all should as well. Beware, though, there is a hidden deadline:

Opt-Out Right. You may opt-out of this Section 16, Dispute Resolution – Arbitration and Class Action Waiver within 30 days from the date you electronically sign these Terms, by sending an email to [email protected] from the email associated with your Rivian ID with “Opt-Out of Arbitration” in the subject line and, in the body of the email, your full name and address. You agree that any request will not apply to subsequent agreements between you and Rivian unless the other agreement provides an option to opt out and you follow the requirements outlined in that agreement.

 

[Guy]

A few things, this sort of thing doesn't matter on huge issues or issues of safety because no waiver will protect you from willful negligence. So if a situation occurs like Ford's pinto where it turns out Rivian knew of a deadly issue and didn't correct it because of cost their arbitration clause wouldn't save them.

This really only protects Rivian from smaller issues and minor disputes and in those situations its better as an owner to get rid of the vehicle and cut your losses than go to court against a company with far greater legal resources than you have. These types of things aren't made to shield Rivian from individuals more to protect them from death of a thousand cuts, basically being inundated with suits over penny ante garbage like minor panel gaps.

The other thing to consider is even by opting out if most people did sign your pool of people who could join a class action is small and therefore the individual decision you make holds very little significance in the grand scheme of things. For me, being someone who has invoked the legal system in business dealings in the past, it is a system of last resort or a system that should only be used for major issues.

Of course this is only one man's opinion, not legal advice.

Thanks for explaining this further. I would not be as dismissive of panel gaps as your comments seemed to imply. We have all seen on this forum of gaps that should not be accepted.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Thanks for explaining this further. I would not be as dismissive of panel gaps as your comments seemed to imply. We have all seen on this forum of gaps that should not be accepted.

Of course, if your car looks like it's leaning sideways because everything is assembled crooked by all means get that fixed. If you'll notice I used the word minor in front of panel gaps. I was only speaking about the sort of person who's walking around the truck with a micrometer measuring panel gaps and peeling off door trim to complain about paint runs.

As with anything we all are going to have different tolerance on what is or isn't acceptable but some people take it too far.

 

[Captain JB]

It is ALWAYS better to have your day in court IMO no matter the size of the issue. When one is paid by the company, there is simply too much bias and a conflict. I have walked away from medical pros that make you sign the waiver.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

It is ALWAYS better to have your day in court IMO no matter the size of the issue. When one is paid by the company, there is simply too much bias and a conflict. I have walked away from medical pros that make you sign the waiver.

Depends on what you define as better. You're going to have to outlay more money without a guarantee of winning. Not only that but big companies with firms on retainer tend to delay for years. Every time your hearing comes up they file a motion to delay which then pushes it back and gives you another couple hours of attorney bills. Since they are already paying for consul it isn't costing them any extra to do this.

Unless you have attorneys working for you directly on payroll like they do this will get really costly really fast. Say you do win, it's going to take at least a year or two and cost thousands of dollars beforehand. You're much better off with getting arbitration, selling the vehicle or simply being loud out in public about your issue so that your bad press can actually cost Rivian money.

If you have the disposable income, and are someone who's principles are such that it's worth wasting a large amount of money and time just to get even then sure maybe it's worth it but for the average person and the average issue it is going to be much more labor intensive to sue a large company than it's worth.

 

[Sbarzideh]

It is ALWAYS better to have your day in court IMO no matter the size of the issue. When one is paid by the company, there is simply too much bias and a conflict. I have walked away from medical pros that make you sign the waiver.

Oh, for goodness sake, keep the ‘Medical Pro’s’ requiring waivers out of the Rivian related thread. Only a personal injury lawyer or a litigious person would dream of legal similarities between a fun car purchase and a medical procedure. Free medical advice here, we have medications and legal chemicals to help your type with legal anxieties about buying a car!

 

[HaveBlue]

This can go their way as well if you opt out. If for some reason you sue them as an individual so both sides have to bear their legal costs, they have a bigger legal budget against you than you have against them. They will paperwork you until you are out of money to pay your attorney. Seen that with Ford on an airbag case. Arbitration helps limit the costs and an arbitrator is approved by both sides. There are other things that can be put in agreements that financially expedite a settlement so the lawyers don't bleed everyone dry.

 

[Count Orlok]

FFS. The Count has gone to arbitration with three companies and won each time. Arbitration can be your friend. (not legal or dog training advice).

 

[Captain JB]

Depends on what you define as better. You're going to have to outlay more money without a guarantee of winning. Not only that but big companies with firms on retainer tend to delay for years. Every time your hearing comes up they file a motion to delay which then pushes it back and gives you another couple hours of attorney bills. Since they are already paying for consul it isn't costing them any extra to do this.

Unless you have attorneys working for you directly on payroll like they do this will get really costly really fast. Say you do win, it's going to take at least a year or two and cost thousands of dollars beforehand. You're much better off with getting arbitration, selling the vehicle or simply being loud out in public about your issue so that your bad press can actually cost Rivian money.

If you have the disposable income, and are someone who's principles are such that it's worth wasting a large amount of money and time just to get even then sure maybe it's worth it but for the average person and the average issue it is going to be much more labor intensive to sue a large company than it's worth.

Thanks for the feedback but we have to agree to disagree. I put my trust in the judicial system and not a bias, owned arbitrator. That is why governments are trying to outlaw forced arbitration in many categories. Thanks again for the reply, JB

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Thanks for the feedback but we have to agree to disagree. I put my trust in the judicial system and not a bias, owned arbitrator. That is why governments are trying to outlaw forced arbitration in many categories. Thanks again for the reply, JB

With all due respect if you trust the judicial system you must not have much experience dealing with it.

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