WIRED / RJ interview: Gen 2.5 Autonomy + What Happens if R2 Flops

[shandering]

Can one of you educate me on what "ODD" means in this context? Thanks!

ODD is the operating domain of the car. It is the set of restrictions the car has where it is intended to be used.

In the case of a car with level 3, the car just hands back control to the user when these restrictions are no longer valid.

For example, with Mercedes's gimmicky level 3 system you can only use it at around 45mph or less, in bumper to bumper traffic, on preapproved roads, perfect lane markings, lead car, no weather of any kind, only during daytime and not sunrise/sunset.

In those restrictions it is impossible to crash and you can geofence out any difficult parts of the roads. Basically it's impossible to use the system for more than a few mins because traffic often moves too fast for you to use this.

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[Dave Cundiff]

ODD is the operating domain of the car. It is the set of restrictions the car has where it is intended to be used.

In the case of a car with level 3, the car just hands back control to the user when these restrictions are no longer valid.

For example, with Mercedes's gimmicky level 3 system you can only use it at around 45mph or less, in bumper to bumper traffic, on preapproved roads, perfect lane markings, lead car, no weather of any kind, only during daytime and not sunrise/sunset.

In those restrictions it is impossible to crash and you can geofence out any difficult parts of the roads. Basically it's impossible to use the system for more than a few mins because traffic often moves too fast for you to use this.

I think I mastered it -- thanks, @shandering!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_design_domain

 

[s4wrxttcs]

If you look at waymo or tesla robotaxi. They drive in the hardest downtown scenarios. Complex construction zones, heavy traffic, narrow roads where sometimes you need to back out as only one direction of traffic can flow through at a time. Extremely tight parking lots, thousands of pedestrians, cyclists, etc.

What do they both have in common? They don't go on the freeway

The idea that rivian is just going to drive on the freeway, at normal freeway speeds, while being eyes-off is laughable.

Waymo is only temporarily suspending operations on freeways. They had some issues with construction zones and flooded roads so that's why they suspended operation on freeways.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2026-05-22/waymo-suspends-all-freeway-rides-over-safety

I don't think Rivian will be targeting normal freeway speeds. Instead it will likely be similar to MB's L3 self driving where its only a traffic assist.

Freeway traffic assist is the easiest condition to support. The MB system has some pretty heavy handed limitations.

 

[shandering]

Waymo is only temporarily suspending operations on freeways. They had some issues with construction zones and flooded roads so that's why they suspended operation on freeways.

it took waymo years to test on the freeway and they still avoid freeways

They are only in the testing phase on freeways. They don't go on freeways for every ride

Freeway traffic assist is the easiest condition to support. The MB system has some pretty heavy handed limitations.

There's zero value in that. Level 3 is not an unsupervised system. You have to pay attention for failures outside the DDT (like a flat tire, suspension failure, computer failure, etc.) and respond to this. It's not an unsupervised system. You are responsible for these accidents, not rivian, not mercedes. Mercedes says you can watch a movie and read a book. You can't really do that how level 3 is written.

Would you rather have a level 3 system (which works for a couple minutes at a time) or a level 2 system like FSD v15 or v16 (which will be out by the time rivian gets to L3) and has the safety level that you barely have to pay attention already

The answer is painfully obvious because rivian would have to go through certification in every state they want to operate level 3 only to have a subpar system that works for a couple minutes at a time. If you put speed restrictions then it means 99% of the time when there is no traffic you can't use it.

Level 3 is looking more and more stupid every day. If you want something not restricted you have level 4 or advanced level 2. These SAE levels were probably written at a time when it wasn't thought consumer cars could have such advanced driving.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

it took waymo years to test on the freeway and they still avoid freeways

They are only in the testing phase on freeways. They don't go on freeways for every ride



There's zero value in that. Level 3 is not an unsupervised system. You have to pay attention for failures outside the DDT (like a flat tire, suspension failure, computer failure, etc.) and respond to this. It's not an unsupervised system. You are responsible for these accidents, not rivian, not mercedes. Mercedes says you can watch a movie and read a book. You can't really do that how level 3 is written.

Would you rather have a level 3 system (which works for a couple minutes at a time) or a level 2 system like FSD v15 or v16 (which will be out by the time rivian gets to L3) and has the safety level that you barely have to pay attention already

The answer is painfully obvious because rivian would have to go through certification in every state they want to operate level 3 only to have a subpar system that works for a couple minutes at a time. If you put speed restrictions then it means 99% of the time when there is no traffic you can't use it.

Waymo doesn't go on the freeway for any ride as that's been suspended.

They did briefly go on freeways for riders who opted in. I did opt in, but I never got the opportunity to try it.

I didn't argue about the value of traffic assist L3. I only argued that it was the only thing a Gen2 Rivian could possibly pull off.

I was going to mention how it was a failure from a sales perspective, but I opted not to go into that. I'm genuinely confused about why RJ would even mention that.

 

[shandering]

Waymo doesn't go on the freeway for any ride as that's been suspended.

Waymo had early access for freeways and they didn't go on every ride. The safety is either not there or there are extra precautions in order to have a freeway ride. Car doesn't just automatically go on even if you are early access

I think the purpose of level 3 is that 3 is better than 2. Even though SAE J3016 says the levels are not indicators of how advanced a system is

 

[s4wrxttcs]

Would you rather have a level 3 system (which works for a couple minutes at a time) or a level 2 system like FSD v15 or v16 (which will be out by the time rivian gets to L3) and has the safety level that you barely have to pay attention already

Just to be clear. MB does assume legal liability for crash caused by a system fault where the technology was active. The driver is at fault if they don't take over in the time given.

The MB system has too limited of an ODD for me to buy a car because of. Plus its not even offered in my state.

Rivian is likely years away from L3 where the ODD is still to be determined.

Tesla FSD is compelling but also extremely dangerous. As an L2 system gets better and better they also get more dangerous. The reason is all the liability is still on the driver, but the car does the majority of the driving. This will lead to the driver getting complacent. We do see this quiet often with the Tesla FSD.

My minimum is an L3/L4 system with a reasonable ODD. When I say minimum what I mean is for that capability to significantly contribute to my rationality for buying the vehicle. Where I accept that it will come with a monthly subscription to have the self-driving capability. That I bought the car for the self-driving capability.

I expect Tesla to try to achieve some kind of L3/L4 within the next 2 years. To me the entire purpose of a Tesla is to have that Self-Driving technology.
I expect Rivian to continue to expand their L2 system but I don't anticipate L3/L4 within that time frame.
I expect within 2 years to easily be able to ride in Waymo/Robotaxi on freeways and surface streets in geofenced areas in a lot of cities in the US.

 

[shandering]

Just to be clear. MB does assume legal liability for crash caused by a system fault where the technology was active. The driver is at fault if they don't take over in the time given.

Mercedes assumes liability for a system fault. That is correct.

The driver is required to take over (with zero warning) for a fault caused by a mechanical failure. Which is why reading a book or watching a movie is technically not within the scope of level 3.

The scope of L3 does not cover the entire DDT and part of not covering the DDT is handling mechanical failures or minimum risk maneuvers.

There is no way to have a large ODD level 3 system and it not have the capability of level 4.

I think tesla's technology is getting better and when they start using the bumper camera and a little bit more compute with HW4.5, they will start expanding robotaxi. Maybe that is FSD v15 or v15.5

 

[Dave Cundiff]

Level 3 is not an unsupervised system. You have to pay attention for failures outside the DDT (like a flat tire, suspension failure, computer failure, etc.) and respond to this.

DDT = Dynamic Driving Task?

https://taxonomy.connectedautomateddriving.eu/dynamic-driving-task

Best wishes!

 

[shandering]

DDT = Dynamic Driving Task?

https://taxonomy.connectedautomateddriving.eu/dynamic-driving-task

Best wishes!

Dynamic driving task is every task needed to drive a car within the set parameters. A common misconception is under level 3, the car is not 100% driving.

The car is doing the function it is supposed to do but it is not responding to mechanical failures or failures outside of the basic task it is supposed to do.

Under level 4 no matter how small the restrictions the car has, it is handling all mechanical failures, minimum risk maneuvers, etc.

Therefore level 3 is not unsupervised while level 4 is unsupervised.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

Mercedes assumes liability for a system fault. That is correct.

The driver is required to take over (with zero warning) for a fault caused by a mechanical failure. Which is why reading a book or watching a movie is technically not within the scope of level 3.

The scope of L3 does not cover the entire DDT and part of not covering the DDT is handling mechanical failures or minimum risk maneuvers.

There is no way to have a large ODD level 3 system and it not have the capability of level 4.

I think tesla's technology is getting better and when they start using the bumper camera and a little bit more compute with HW4.5, they will start expanding robotaxi. Maybe that is FSD v15 or v15.5

Level 3 is an eyes off system and as such a system the vehicles regulated by it are required to handle 100% of the dynamic driving task.

With MB the takeover time is 10 seconds. If the accident occurs within this allotted time MB will assume responsibility.

One of the nice things about an L3 vehicle like the MB is a lot of the mechanical systems have redundancy.

Sensor redundancy
Actuator redundancy - Steering
Computing Units

L3 systems will always be hampered by the hand off situation. For example with an L3 camper van I wouldn't be able to walk to the bathroom to pee.

I also can't fall sleep.

I have to be present in the driver seat in position where the Camera can see me and verify that I'll be ready to take over.

But, I don't think that will prevent me from buying an L3 vehicle. Ultimately what prevents me from buying one today is regulatory and limited ODD.

 

[shandering]

Level 3 is an eyes off system and as such a system the vehicles regulated by it are required to handle 100% of the dynamic driving task.

No. That's only level 4. The DDT encompasses everything needed to drive.

Under level 3 mechanical failures are not part of the car's DDT. Mechanical failures include mirror falling off, suspension component failing, flat tire, etc.

under level 3 there is no need to inspect your car for mechanical readiness. if your wheel falls off due to the nuts not being tight enough, that's on the user if the car crashes. Under level 4, the car manufacturer would need to regularly inspect the car and would need to handle driving if the wheel falls off

What mercedes does is restrict the ODD so small that the only crashes come from mechanical failures. Mercedes is not responsible. The only other crashes come other people crashing into you.

It says in SAE J3016 that you need to be ready to resume control when these failures are apparent

There's a self driving expert named phil koopman and he claims that under level 3, he thinks you cannot supervise a level 3 system and not be doing anything other than looking out the windshield

If your car hits a pothole, mercedes is responsible if you get a flat tire. If your car has a failure after that, I would think the user is responsible for any accident caused by not responding to the flat tire.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

No. That's only level 4. The DDT encompasses everything needed to drive.

Under level 3 mechanical failures are not part of the car's DDT. Mechanical failures include mirror falling off, suspension component failing, flat tire, etc.

under level 3 there is no need to inspect your car for mechanical readiness. if your wheel falls off due to the nuts not being tight enough, that's on the user if the car crashes. Under level 4, the car manufacturer would need to regularly inspect the car and would need to handle driving if the wheel falls off

What mercedes does is restrict the ODD so small that the only crashes come from mechanical failures. Mercedes is not responsible. The only other crashes come other people crashing into you.

It says in SAE J3016 that you need to be ready to resume control when these failures are apparent

There's a self driving expert named phil koopman and he claims that under level 3, he thinks you cannot supervise a level 3 system and not be doing anything other than looking out the windshield

If your car hits a pothole, mercedes is responsible if you get a flat tire. If your car has a failure after that, I would think the user is responsible for any accident caused by not responding to the flat tire.

Under L3 the human is the DDT fallback-ready user. But, the system must continue to perform the DDT for several seconds after providing the fallback ready user with a request to intervene.

When it comes to liability the owner of the car does bear a lot of responsibility when it comes to preventative mechanical failure regardless of whether its L3 or L4. If the accident was caused by lack of proper maintenance then its on the vehicle owner. We don't see any examples of that as there are no consumer owners L4 vehicles.

Both L3 and L4 systems will likely require regular inspection by a representative of the manufacture for the self driving features to work.

I do agree with you in that I would not call L3 fully unsupervised. But, I would not go as far as claiming that you can only look out the windshield. You can still engage in other activities while being present enough to take over when requested. It is hands off and eyes off.


Sources for the DDT faillback:
https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/es/#iso:std:iso-sae:pas:22736:ed-1:v1:en

https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/128418539/SAE J3016_202104.pdf

 

[shandering]

Under L3 the human is the DDT fallback-ready user. But, the system must continue to perform the DDT for several seconds after providing the fallback ready user with a request to intervene.

This is what you are not understanding. The car does not perform the entire DDT even when it is driving

Mechanical failures are 100% outside of the scope of the car's DDT. Minimum risk maneuvers too. Those are only for level 4

you are performing this task of identifying and responding to mechanical failures (without warning or handoff) while the car is driving.

The argument is you cannot read a book or movie (or even do anything other than look out the windshield) to 100% properly do this task

The argument on the flipside is that you can feel when your wheel falls off or your suspension gives out

 

[loqueid]

I think RJ is saying “completely unsupervised” whereas the website is saying you’ll be able to be eyes off in certain “controlled” conditions (highway, good weather, etc.). Who knows though!

Eye off means .. for 2-3 seconds before it yells at you. If you keep doing it, you can be, like, 50-70% eye off!

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