Right to Repair for Rivian owners? Thoughts?

[FormerRIVTech]

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/3/2...r-new-york-state-law-ifixit-repairability-diy

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[AllInev]

Simultaneously interested and terrified to see if this thread lights up. Standing by…

 

[M&M]

Where do you think the burden of creating the repair manuals and tools will land? I will tell you where; on the consumer, driving up the initial price for that device. Don't forget the recent hyper-inflation we are all experiencing too. Can I get a new iPhone 35? Sure, just pay me $2700...

 

[pc500]

Nissan does it well they have a way you can just rent access to the manuals and proprietary software by the day. It's not cheap but it's fair given the short time frame.

the scan tool is still expensive but you can rent it.

 

[Arky]

Where do you think the burden of creating the repair manuals and tools will land? I will tell you where; on the consumer, driving up the initial price for that device. Don't forget the recent hyper-inflation we are all experiencing too. Can I get a new iPhone 35? Sure, just pay me $2700...

The shop manuals and tools already exist, how do you think Rivian would service the cars themselves? Tools can be as cheap as the company wants to make them, it's this non-standard obfuscation that makes them expensive (what could it be doing you couldn't do with a USB port and a computer?)

Right to repair is an environmental issue as much as a consumer rights one, treating cars like a phone has never been and shouldn't be acceptable; electric vehicles aren't going to be any better for us if we throw them away after 10 years. Tesla has been horrible for this and I'd hate to see everyone else go down that road.

 

[M&M]

The issue isn't the right to repair, it is the broad brush they paint with that is the issue. The way it is written, it can apply to almost anything in this day and age.

"...would require all manufacturers who sell “digital electronic products” within state borders to make tools, parts, and instructions for repair available to both consumers and independent shops."

"New York isn’t the first state to pass a right to repair bill, but it’s the first such bill to apply to electronics broadly."

 

[NY_Rob]

I think it's a great start!

I just repaired a 5yr old BT Speaker that had a failing internal Li-Ion battery pack. That same speaker is still being made, it's $90 new. I was able to take it apart, remove the (4X 18650 cell) battery pack, scavenge it's BMS and solder that to a new 4X 18650 battery I made from cells I bought from batteryhookup.com for $2.50 for all four cells.
Hmmmm,... $2.50 vs. $90... I like that math!

It's amazing what you can repair if you're motivated and now maybe it will become even easier if we have access to proper shop manuals.

 

[aw113sgte]

I would love access to repair manuals and software. Also need access to parts. I really hope they don't take the Apple and Tesla method.
I lost the hitch cover, and of course there's no place to order it so I had to put in a service request.
When they were here fixing my truck after it bricked with the 12-volt issue, they had a plug for their computer with an RJ45 on one end and OBD2 connector on the other. Hopefully we can get software and cables at some point.

 

[R1Sky Business]

Where do you think the burden of creating the repair manuals and tools will land? I will tell you where; on the consumer, driving up the initial price for that device. Don't forget the recent hyper-inflation we are all experiencing too. Can I get a new iPhone 35? Sure, just pay me $2700...

That's too cheap.

 

[FormerRIVTech]

I 100% support right to repair on all fronts for all vehicles. I've heard the stories and seen the by products of closed off service to the public. I've been in the industry for 14 yrs, 5 has been EV specific and I think honestly, in the most respectful way, consumers have lost the ability to repair their own products and it creates a horrible customer experience. Being able to work on our own vehicles should be priority before they are shipped to consumer (my opinion), there is a reason why all vehicles on the road use OBD 2 after a certain year. Manuals should be published as open source because is the service is not scalable, the workforce is catching up, materials are a under hard times, I think this makes the most sense, it will also help the environment, I've replaced too many whole assemblies I'm the past for a small 25 cent trim piece. IMO, I would like to see all repairs parts shipped to consumer with a video repair instructions link. Empowering customers to fix their own stuff is a part of owning a truck/vehicle and if that's not the "jam" of the consumer, send a mobile tech to do it but it should at least be an option. This could greatly benefit the environment in indirect ways, carbon emissions from shipping, manufacturing, driving to shop, waiting, months, dealing with back orders, miscommunications etc?

 

[crashmtb]

The EPA already requires all motor vehicle manufacturers to make operation, maintenance, and repair information available to customers.

every single automaker has an(expensive!) subscription-based online system. Rivian will be no different. Even Tesla does it.
gone are the days of buying a big, expensive set of binders.
I use JLR Topix for my Land Rover when my (old) paper manual is missing something.

Give it time and there will be a Haynes manual.

you can already see Rivian’s internal service tools - like many automakers they have partnered with snap-on.
https://rivianservicetools.com/

 

[Arky]

I think it's a great start!

I just repaired a 5yr old BT Speaker that had a failing internal Li-Ion battery pack. That same speaker is still being made, it's $90 new. I was able to take it apart, remove the (4X 18650 cell) battery pack, scavenge it's BMS and solder that to a new 4X 18650 battery I made from cells I bought from batteryhookup.com for $2.50 for all four cells.
Hmmmm,... $2.50 vs. $90... I like that math!

It's amazing what you can repair if you're motivated and now maybe it will become even easier if we have access to proper shop manuals.

A surprising amount of things are doable if you're motivated and have something as simple as a service manual or board schematic. What I mostly want to see here is just a crackdown on the anti-consumer behaviors of making proprietary parts completely unavailable or locking things down with completely unnecessary software. I've fixed old TVs, cordless vacuums, and other things with no reference simply because they're accessible and there's no software nanny-lock forcing me out. Heck my furnace actually *has* a schematic printed on the cabinet, but it's a product of a different age.

I think the problem with some of the RtR efforts in general is that there is quite a difference in the expected service life, garbage generated from disposal, and repair ability of certain things that isn't captured by some of the proposals being put out there. A phone or laptop is sometimes repairable, sometimes expensive enough to do so, but even then the service life is typically 2-4 years. The average car on US roads is 12 years old and it's made from multiple sub assemblies, there's no reason that shouldn't be fixable.

Expecting repair documentation and tools for a $20 computer mouse seems ridiculous because let's face it, it's never worth it unless it's a hobby (and I don't think we need to mandate companies support a hobby), but when we're talking about repairable $2000 laptops or an $80,000 truck it's quite different.

 

[FormerRIVTech]

A surprising amount of things are doable if you're motivated and have something as simple as a service manual or board schematic. What I mostly want to see here is just a crackdown on the anti-consumer behaviors of making proprietary parts completely unavailable or locking things down with completely unnecessary software. I've fixed old TVs, cordless vacuums, and other things with no reference simply because they're accessible and there's no software nanny-lock forcing me out. Heck my furnace actually *has* a schematic printed on the cabinet, but it's a product of a different age.

I think the problem with some of the RtR efforts in general is that there is quite a difference in the expected service life, garbage generated from disposal, and repair ability of certain things that isn't captured by some of the rules. A phone or laptop is sometimes repairable, sometimes expensive enough to do so, but even then the service life is typically 2-4 years. The average car on US roads is 12 years old and it's made from multiple sub assemblies, there's no reason that shouldn't be fixable.

Expecting repair documentation and tools for a $20 computer mouse seems ridiculous because let's face it, it's never worth it unless it's a hobby (and I don't think we need to mandate companies support a hobby), but when we're talking about repairable $2000 laptops or an $80,000 truck it's quite different.

Agree on multiple levels, I see it as being a byproduct of driving consumerism for the sake of profit, this hits environment on a very very deep level. I think RTR also hits holes of trade/purchasing secrets where one can see the mark up of "X", as opposed to cost of building "X", inflation and trade are driving up costs that fall into the consumer. With manuals and understanding product builds take over, you'll see consumer driven repairs actually reduce costs effectively, reduce carbon footprint, feedback from "consumer experience" stand point will and processes of improvement faster x there's less omission to the consumer, I mean, ultimately it's winning for everyone, the industry isn't what it used to be, product availability isn't what it used to be, products are not what they used to be, so repair shouldn't stay the same either. If consumers want their autonomy of the product, product support can be another branch of aid for the consumer, overall, I think many people who gravitate towards a product like Rivians would benefit as well as the entire industry. I'm sure some technicians are not happy with my words as it may seem like it's creating an effect of affecting their livelihood but I disagree. It's about evolution of products.

 

[FormerRIVTech]

The EPA already requires all motor vehicle manufacturers to make operation, maintenance, and repair information available to customers.

every single automaker has an(expensive!) subscription-based online system. Rivian will be no different. Even Tesla does it.
gone are the days of buying a big, expensive set of binders.
I use JLR Topix for my Land Rover when my (old) paper manual is missing something.

Give it time and there will be a Haynes manual.

you can already see Rivian’s internal service tools - like many automakers they have partnered with snap-on.
https://rivianservicetools.com/

I wouldn't entirely bet on it (opinion). Just because a website shows corporate partners doesn't quite mean it's "building partnership dynamic" as you say, we have to remember those with boots in the ground are not always the ones behind the websites and key boards. That's just reality. TSB are not always made public for every manufacturers for a reason. No manufacturer likes their dirty laundry/mistakes that trail a safety concern or a TSB that was only generated because of a "wholesale deal" or "relationship to a manufacturer"or dare I say "cost cutting". We are seeing the depths of how relationships from biz to biz works with shortage of vital components. Big product pumpers are very ? when selling to manufacturers in my experience (Merc,Mazda,Ford,GM,BMW etc) with other brands because the profit margins are measured by likelyhood to move product, they won't sell as many as "X" products for a high line luxury build that's not mass produced but will sell to a lower priced competitor thay mastered the consumerism market for it's clientele (Honda/Toyota). When there's a lack of product it comes down to relationship and reputation. The industry is changing and I feel it's important for consumer to let peeps know what they want so the company can evolve with it's clientele base but that's just my .02.


https://electrek.co/2022/04/18/rivian-ceo-warns-battery-shortage-vs-chip-supply/

 

[FormerRIVTech]

It's come to my attention that Rivian HAS and IS monitoring this Profile. Just something I feel should be known for anyone reading this forum just for full transparency.

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