Future Cost for Rivian Subscription Services

[DJG]

This isn't entirely accurate. When I was signing my PBA, there were several references to the Beta membership. You can even find it on their website here: https://rivian.com/legal/membership
I highly recommend every read this. There is some concerning stuff in here.

When you purchase a Rivian, you are automatically agreeing to join the Rivian Membership and agree to the Beta Membership Terms and Conditions. They will not let you opt out of the membership. I asked. The Beta Membership you are forced to join is free for one year. After one year you will be charged.

I pushed my guide hard about this issue and what the membership included. No real answers at all. Not even a ballpark on the future pricing. I was shocked (still am) that so many people are letting Rivian get away with this. We have no idea what the annual fee will be and what that even includes. It may be $500/year or $5,000/year. We have no idea.

My Guide said that they are planning on the membership to only include access to the RAN, Roadside Assistance, and Hotspot.

My Guide told me that they will announce the annual membership fee and what it includes this September, because that will be one year after the first deliveries (when the free Beta membership exires).

From the terms and conditions page:
" All Rivian Beta Products are provided and included at Rivian’s sole discretion. Any or all Rivian Beta Products may be changed, modified or removed from Rivian Beta Membership at any time, without notice and your Rivian Beta Membership, and/or the Rivian Beta Membership program, may be discontinued at any time, without notice. Your agreement to these terms and conditions or decision to use the Rivian Beta Products in no way obligates Rivian to offer any future product or service of any kind. At Rivian’s sole discretion, Rivian reserves the right to discontinue this public beta and may offer similar products to the Rivian Beta Products in the future. "

I find it legally humorous that it is so unclear what the Rivian Beta Products even are defined as. We don't even know what we are buying or agreeing to, and giving Rivian the right to charge us any amount for it and also giving them the right to discontinue it at any time and they are not obligated to provide any service at all related to the beta products and membership.

That's not an accurate take, and sounds like it was supported by bad information from your Guide, which wouldn't be the first time that has happened in the least. No one is forced to participate in the membership (other than the initial period where parts of it are being provided right now for free - data and charging at the three open sites). I think people are spinning themselves into a frenzy as if it's some foreign, new and secret thing, but it's ultimately just an extension of data subscription services that have existed for a long time, and are completely optional.

For example, this is directly from the first section of that link, and similar statements are littered throughout that make it clear that it is an optional program:
You understand and agree that participation in the Rivian Beta Membership program is voluntary...

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[crashmtb]

Why would the garage door opener be behind a paywall? It's not a cellular feature or even one that requires ongoing maintenance from Rivian. It's a piece of physical hardware in the truck and a UI element on the screen to control it. Putting that behind a paywall would be nonsensical.

The day you forget to renew your homelink subscription: “insert coin to continue”. Guess it’s street parking!

 

[GHuff]

For example, this is directly from the first section of that link, and similar statements are littered throughout that make it clear that it is an optional program:
You understand and agree that participation in the Rivian Beta Membership program is voluntary...

Exactly why I don't love this. You can't buy a Rivian right now without joining the Rivian Beta Membership program. (that's what I was told). So, it's voluntary in the sense that buying a Rivian is voluntary.

 

[DJG]

Exactly why I don't love this. You can't buy a Rivian right now without joining the Rivian Beta Membership program. (that's what I was told). So, it's voluntary in the sense that buying a Rivian is voluntary.

I think you are still turned around. You are getting a data connection and free charging right now as part of this initial phase of the membership program. There is literally zero obligation on your part, now or in the future, and you are being provided something for free that will later cost money. You would rather snub your nose and just pay for these things?

I don't get the objection here...It's the exact same thing that comes with nearly every new vehicle purchase regardless of make (I can't immediately think of any that don't do this). You are automatically given something for free that they hope you will find value in to pay for to continue using, but you don't have to.

It's not even like some things where you have to provide payment info upfront, and you'll be automatically charged if you don't cancel (banking on people forgetting to cancel). This is literally zero risk or obligation, which is why it's taken as a given no one in their right mind would decline it.

 

[GHuff]

I think you are still turned around. You are getting a data connection and free charging right now as part of this initial phase of the membership program. There is literally zero obligation on your part, now or in the future, and you are being provided something for free that will later cost money. You would rather snub your nose and just pay for these things?

I don't get the objection here...It's the exact same thing that comes with nearly every new vehicle purchase regardless of make (I can't immediately think of any that don't do this). You are automatically given something for free that they hope you will find value in to pay for to continue using, but you don't have to.

It's not even like some things where you have to provide payment info upfront, and you'll be automatically charged if you don't cancel (banking on people forgetting to cancel). This is literally zero risk or obligation, which is why it's taken as a given no one in their right mind would decline it.

Eh. I see your point and I agree with it, generally. But there are a few differences to me.

1. It's not clear what the membership includes.
   1. a. Is the membership for OTA updates? Is it for things that are pretty necessary to have an operable vehicle?
   2. b. The terms quite clearly state that Rivian is not obligated to fix anything or provide any service for any beta products or beta membership services. And that they may discontinue it at any time. Since it's not clear what this is, this is a huge concern. Does this mean that Rivian may not service my vehicle if my hotspot never works? What about an OTA update that fails? What if anything goes wrong and Rivian just says, sorry, you were in our beta program, good luck with your $80k purchase that doesn't work. And yes, I get this is a general concern with them being a new manufacturer, but this just adds to that concern. They could push a beta product on you via an OTA that ruins your vehicle. The car itself is not a beta product, so what is the beta product and what does the beta membership include?
   3. c. Roadside assistance is a pretty commonly accepted Membership Service perk. Yet, Rivian is not obligated at all to provide this service. They can stop providing this service at a whim. That is a huge hit to Rivian owners. And, yes, it's free for now, so this can easily be argued as a moot point. But I still think it a bit misleading, because 99% of owners think this service as well as the hotspot and access to the RAN is a given as part of buying a Rivian and not something that Rivian can just stop providing. Very few people would buy a vehicle that can't be serviced in an emergency. Very few people would buy a $80,000 vehicle that doesn't have navigation or a hotspot or XM. Yet, Rivian can just get rid of basically anything about this car on a whim.
   4. d. In your examples, it's pretty explicit what the ongoing annual fee will be, what is optional, and what it includes. That's just not the case here. Are they going to charge more for "sand mode" or "pet mode" or ability to play games or ability to watch Netflix in the future? And if so, and your Sand Mode doesn't work, Rivian has no obligation to fix it for you. Now you have a defunct product.
2. It's not clear what the future of the membership will be. Kind of said this above.
   1. a. You point out that since it is free, there is zero risk and zero obligation. But again, we don't know what is going to be included. The risk is that they charge $5,000 for access to the RAN. Would you pay that? The risk is that they charge $10 per OTA update. The risk is that they charge $400 for the hotspot. The risk is that charge $20 for heated and ventilated seats! The obligation is (because it's not clear what the membership is) that you will have a very basic and devalued vehicle if you don't continue the paid membership...you aren't getting your $80k worth. If I knew that heated and ventilated seats were extra, I'd be way more upset that they just canned the Adventure trim.

 

[DJG]

Eh. I see your point and I agree with it, generally. But there are a few differences to me.

1. It's not clear what the membership includes.
   1. a. Is the membership for OTA updates? Is it for things that are pretty necessary to have an operable vehicle?
   2. b. The terms quite clearly state that Rivian is not obligated to fix anything or provide any service for any beta products or beta membership services. And that they may discontinue it at any time. Since it's not clear what this is, this is a huge concern. Does this mean that Rivian may not service my vehicle if my hotspot never works? What about an OTA update that fails? What if anything goes wrong and Rivian just says, sorry, you were in our beta program, good luck with your $80k purchase that doesn't work. And yes, I get this is a general concern with them being a new manufacturer, but this just adds to that concern. They could push a beta product on you via an OTA that ruins your vehicle. The car itself is not a beta product, so what is the beta product and what does the beta membership include?
   3. c. Roadside assistance is a pretty commonly accepted Membership Service perk. Yet, Rivian is not obligated at all to provide this service. They can stop providing this service at a whim. That is a huge hit to Rivian owners. And, yes, it's free for now, so this can easily be argued as a moot point. But I still think it a bit misleading, because 99% of owners think this service as well as the hotspot and access to the RAN is a given as part of buying a Rivian and not something that Rivian can just stop providing. Very few people would buy a vehicle that can't be serviced in an emergency. Very few people would buy a $80,000 vehicle that doesn't have navigation or a hotspot or XM. Yet, Rivian can just get rid of basically anything about this car on a whim.
   4. d. In your examples, it's pretty explicit what the ongoing annual fee will be, what is optional, and what it includes. That's just not the case here. Are they going to charge more for "sand mode" or "pet mode" or ability to play games or ability to watch Netflix in the future? And if so, and your Sand Mode doesn't work, Rivian has no obligation to fix it for you. Now you have a defunct product.
2. It's not clear what the future of the membership will be. Kind of said this above.
   1. a. You point out that since it is free, there is zero risk and zero obligation. But again, we don't know what is going to be included. The risk is that they charge $5,000 for access to the RAN. Would you pay that? The risk is that they charge $10 per OTA update. The risk is that they charge $400 for the hotspot. The risk is that charge $20 for heated and ventilated seats! The obligation is (because it's not clear what the membership is) that you will have a very basic and devalued vehicle if you don't continue the paid membership...you aren't getting your $80k worth. If I knew that heated and ventilated seats were extra, I'd be way more upset that they just canned the Adventure trim.

Yeah, definitely lost, really lost. I'll try to help but not sure I can.

1. The best we can go off of is what they lay out on the website regarding membership, that it's planned to include the following at least to start (but still subject to change because it's not finalized nor has it started formally):

• Unlimited LTE connectivity (presumably necessary for things like live traffic, streaming services and to be able to use the truck as a hotspot). This is the only vehicle feature you would lose by not signing up, and it's the same as in any other vehicle on the market today.
• Free RAN/Waypoint charging - you don't need Membership to access RAN/Waypoints at all, you just get free charging included, rather than pay as you go otherwise.
• Roadside Assistance (recovery and charging) - roadside assistance is a premium additional cost service throughout the industry and always has been. Nothing different here.
• Access to Rivian gatherings and events, exclusive to Members. In the future, they hint at Rivian curated/led drives/outings. These may be accessible through the Membership, but an additional cost, or they may just come with the membership, dunno.
• 100% renewable energy matching - sounds like they will track your energy use (regardless of charging location) and match it with renewable energy purchases.

That's it. They hint at other things, potentially contingent on the size of the Membership pool, like enhanced vehicle features, drive modes and in cabin content.

OTA's will NOT be tied to Membership or cost any money. Except for newly developed vehicle features that are part of Membership that require an OTA to load on your vehicle. So the vast majority of OTA's will go to everyone, but occasionally there might be a subset OTA that goes to Members that delivers them Hover Mode, or whatever.

The only change you would see to your vehicle from what exists today if you don't continue the Membership is you would lose LTE connectivity and all that enables. Nothing else.

Yes, the lawyers have required them to state that they are not obligated to provide any services in perpetuity as long as you maintain your membership. That is common sense. If they discontinue a service that is integral to your value of the membership, you just cancel, simple. You haven't lost anything.

You can always procure roadside assistance, with or without the Membership. It's just that without it, you have to pay for that service, which is common sense and just like with any other vehicle.

Sand Mode and Pet Mode are base features that come with every vehicle. They would not be part of the Membership. It will be clear what features you are getting as part of the membership and what features you are getting along with everyone else. Ability to play games or watch Netflix doesn't currently exist, so it's up to Rivian whether they include that as part of every vehicle or reserve it for the Membership, if and when they offer those services. So again, nothing is taken away that came with the vehicle if they stop offering it in the future.

Already covered that access to RAN is not a premium service that you pay for, nor are OTA's. Hotspot is just an extension of the data connectivity, which you clearly have to pay for if you want it, just like in every vehicle on the market (no one gives you free data because that data comes from the telecoms and isn't free). At least in current vehicles and until further notice, the heated/ventilated seats are bought and paid for in the vehicle purchase, they cannot legally take those away. They could however, choose to change the purchase documents in the future and stipulate that those features are available separately for an ongoing charge. They are within their right to do that, but only for vehicles going forward if documented properly, not ones already sold.

So again, the one and only thing that can possibly go away from a vehicle purchased today without Membership is data connectivity, which is both clear and widely accepted practice in the industry. It also doesn't devalue the vehicle, because it can easily be turned back on.

You're overthinking this and getting lost in a black hole, it's really not that complicated or nefarious.

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