Any R1S pre-orders hear from guides recently?

[jffkm]

Man I am a sept 2019 order, LE, GW, BM 20's, in SLC 30 mins from service center, no under body shield and thinking I may change my location to Colorado with how many vehicles are being delivered there! haha

I feel you. 11/28/2018 pre order, bay area le/lg/20AT/bm and not a peep. I started seeing them driving around here so it's close...but the order of deliveries is a total mystery to me at this stage.

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[Blakeney]

cool yeah I am Oct-Dec delivery "apparently"

 

[ERguy]

The law doesn't provide any guidance - they punt that to the Treasury department.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d

Future Guidance
To reduce carbon emissions and invest in the energy security of the United States, the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 significantly changes the eligibility rules for tax credits available for clean vehicles beginning in 2023. The Internal Revenue Service and the Department of the Treasury will post information and request comments from the public on various existing and new tax credit incentives in the coming weeks and months. Please look for updates on IRS.gov and other announcements from the Administration

I can almost guarantee they will further opine on those Vehicles Purchased and Delivered between 12/31/2022 and X date...look at the headings of the website right now:
Transition Rule for Vehicles Purchased before 8/16
Vehicles Purchased and Delivered between 8/16 and 12/31/22

The binding agreement being valid is one unknown.
The second unknown is the above.

Look I'm hoping to get the tax rebate as well in 2023 but lets not be naive.

You didn't read the bill (I can't blame you).

But here is the relevant info.

The bill clearly states exactly what I said.

The binding contract provision is written directly into the bill. No amount of IRS shenanigans can take it out.

Additionally, here is the preliminary guidance from the treasure department further confirming this provision.

 

[JerseyGreens]

You didn't read the bill (I can't blame you).

But here is the relevant info.

The bill clearly states exactly what I said.

The binding contract provision is written directly into the bill. No amount of IRS shenanigans can take it out.

Additionally, here is the preliminary guidance from the treasure department further confirming this provision.

I think you are missing my point. I'm not disagreeing with your points about the binding contract.

The fact that the IRS hasn't opined yet on the category of, " Vehicles Purchased and Delivered between 12/31/2022 and X date, let's say 12/31/2023 (as example)" doesn't mean they won't. In fact they are literally saying they ARE going to opine further in December. Stay tuned.

The part of the bill you copied literally states, "as the Secretary of Treasury...may prescribe..." - so ultimately you just need to be open-minded to the fact that the Secretary of Treasury may prescribe something limiting the "extension" of the tax rebate far into 2023. I'm not saying it's set in stone either way.

I'm not sure sure why that is so hard to fathom? Is it possible: yes...end of story.

 

[dleepnw]

For all of you out there with El Cap/BM on 22" darks - enjoy! Setup is sick.

a little biased there about that combo? ?

 

[Tsunami]

a little biased there about that combo? ?

What gave it away?

 

[Tsunami]

I reached out to my Guide to ask a very direct question: "Will I get my R1S in 2022 within my delivery window?" My Guide responded with an unequivocal "Yes." This is the first time that I have received a very straightforward response, which of course I greatly appreciated. The time is getting near.

 

[ERguy]

The fact that the IRS hasn't opined yet on the category of, " Vehicles Purchased and Delivered between 12/31/2022 and X date, let's say 12/31/2023 (as example)" doesn't mean they won't. In fact they are literally saying they ARE going to opine further in December. Stay tuned.

They clearly have already confirmed my statement.

You are making up some arbitrary deadline after which time the IRS may or may not honor contracts.

The bill and the IRS info I posted both say you can continue to use the old tax rebate with a binding contract signed prior to August 16th. Neither the bill nor the IRS state that there is some sort of arbitrary deadline of 12/31/2022 at which time that offer stops.

The language of both the bill and the IRS was very clear about it.

You just made up the part about the IRS not yet opining about what happens after 12/31/23.

They don't need to opine since the law was clear about continuing to provide access to the old rebate.

 

[dleepnw]

Correct.

you never got the email in December 2021? i thought everyone who had a pre-order got an email with window at that time. maybe check your junk mail folder?

 

[JerseyGreens]

They clearly have already confirmed my statement.

You are making up some arbitrary deadline after which time the IRS may or may not honor contracts.

The bill and the IRS info I posted both say you can continue to use the old tax rebate with a binding contract signed prior to August 16th. Neither the bill nor the IRS state that there is some sort of arbitrary deadline of 12/31/2022 at which time that offer stops.

The language of both the bill and the IRS was very clear about it.

You just made up the part about the IRS not yet opining about what happens after 12/31/23.

They don't need to opine since the law was clear about continuing to provide access to the old rebate.

I didn't make any deadline - don't put words in my mouth.

If the IRS didn't need to opine how come there are multiple BOLDY written categories on this website? (you won't answer this because you have yet to answer any one of my questions)
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d

You can copy/paste whatever you want from the bill and parts of the internet but if you can't have a common sense conversation around the POSSIBILITY that we may or may not get the rebate after 2022 then you "guy" are just dreaming...to think that the IRS is done adding updates to their Further Guidance section is laughable.

The MAJORITY of us here are understanding that in the end of the day it's a toss up what happens in 2023 with deliveries and the rebate...However, there are select few posting around here that are flat out foolish to think otherwise and GUARANTEEING people will get the $7,500...you fall into that bucket... of course I hope we all get it (including you and I).

Take care and lets get this thread back on track...

 

[ERguy]

If the IRS didn't need to opine how come there are multiple BOLDY written categories on this website? (you won't answer this because you have yet to answer any one of my questions

I'm actually happy to answer that.

The IRS created that document to help people like you who can't understand the language of the bill.

That document doesn't add to or change the law. it just summarizes some of the key points in a way for people like you to understand.

All of that info from the IRS was already known since it was spelled out in the bill... Just as the bill says we can continue to use the old tax credit with NO cutoff point or deadline mentioned.

See... I'm happy to answer questions ?.

 

[Hoo D. Hoo]

Go @svet-am ! Good luck! I hope it's fabulous.

Thank you, @ERguy , for the text of the Act and that FAQ sheet. That answers one of my concerns, which was the difference between purchase date and "put into service" date. I see that if the conditions are satisfied, it allows the taxpayer to elect to treat the vehicle as "put into service" on Aug. 15, 2022, even if it's much later, with no specified end date.

I'm still concerned about two things.

(1) Whether Rivian's "binding purchase contract" will be considered as such. I saw the IRS guidance you linked to. The relevant paragraph is:

What Is a Written Binding Contract?

In general, a written contract is binding if it is enforceable under State law and does not limit damages to a specified amount (for example, by use of a liquidated damages provision or the forfeiture of a deposit). While the enforceability of a contract under State law is a facts-and-circumstances determination to be made under relevant State law, if a customer has made a significant non-refundable deposit or down payment, it is an indication of a binding contract. For tax purposes in general, a contract provision that limits damages to an amount equal to at least 5 percent of the total contract price is not treated as limiting damages to a specified amount. For example, if a customer has made a non-refundable deposit or down payment of 5 percent of the total contract price, it is an indication of a binding contract. A contract is binding even if subject to a condition, as long as the condition is not within the control of either party. A contract will continue to be binding if the parties make insubstantial changes in its terms and conditions.

That's pretty squishy. I don't think there's an ironclad way to read it. My read is that a written contract that limits damages to the forfeiture of a deposit is not considered a "written binding contract," unless, "in general" (no commitment), it is "a significant non-refundable deposit or down payment." And the example they then give is a non-refundable 5% down payment. Even then, that's not a guarantee it'll be treated as binding, it's just "an indication of a binding contract," "in general."

That leaves me with doubts about whether a $100 deposit, on a $75K+ luxury car, will be considered "substantial" enough to make the contract "binding." That's nowhere near their 5% example. More like a fig leaf. Unless the contract otherwise appears to give Rivian the right to sue the buyer for the balance of the purchase price if the buyer backs out, I don't see the "binding contract" argument holding up.

(2) Rivian's "binding purchase agreement" does, however, contain language saying that changes made after Aug. 16, 2022 will be subject to higher pricing. That makes me very hesitant. I know our original deposit agreements said the same thing, and Rivian backed down in the March 2022 price hike fiasco and said it would honor all pre-Mar. 1 pricing for pre-Mar. 1 orders, even if the config wasn't locked down yet. But this gives them a second chance. I'm not 100% confident they would back down on that again. After all, to pass IRS muster, this contract is supposed to be "binding." If they don't enforce that piece, then it looks more like a fig leaf based on a second $100 deposit. Which wouldn't qualify.

In my own personal risk analysis, I decided the expected risk of #2 did not outweigh the expected benefit of #1. I didn't sign. So for me, credit-wise, it's 2022 or bust.

 

[JerseyGreens]

I'm actually happy to answer that.

The IRS created that document to help people like you who can't understand the language of the bill.

That document doesn't add to or change the law.. it just summarizes some of the key points in a way for people like you to understand.

All of that info from the IRS was already known since it was spelled out in the bill... Just as the bill says we can continue to use the old tax credit with NO cutoff point out deadline mentioned.

See... I'm happy to answer questions ?.

I understand quite a bit...such as putting our configs/timelines in our signature.

Clearly you need some help understanding how this forum works, correct - maybe I can put together a document for you...

Maybe I can spell it out for you...1) update your signature 2) get this thread back on topic.

 

[Hoo D. Hoo]

I also see the squishy language that @JerseyGreens is still concerned about. It says the taxpayer may elect, at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary (or the Secretary's delegate) may prescribe. (My best memory -- scrolling, copying and pasting was cumbersome.)

A taxpayer might argue, that time, form and manner refers to the form of the IRS paperwork -- not the taxpayer's entitlement to make the election. The IRS, on the other hand, might take a different view -- that it may prescribe the terms or conditions that determine whether the election is valid or invalid. ("Terms" isn't in the Act, of course, but that may not stop their trying.) I'm not saying one side is right or wrong; I'm saying it's an uncertainty and a possible fight.

My take: the later instruction book on this credit (and there's bound to be a later instruction, between now and January 2023) may not only prescribe instructions for filling out the IRS worksheet on this. It's also likely (or at least possible) it will give guidance on what is a "substantial" enough exposure to damages in a contract to make it "binding" for purpose of the credit. And I personally am not optimistic that the Rivian agreement and the extra $100 is going to make the cut.


But all of this remains to be seen. Meantime, let's enjoy this sunny day and have a beer. And congratulate our friends who are taking delivery of long-awaited SUVs and trucks.

 

[Mygrain]

you never got the email in December 2021? i thought everyone who had a pre-order got an email with window at that time.

I never got an email in December because I did not configure my preorder until December 24. CS has explained to me that the windows emailed in late December were based on configured preorders as of mid-December sometime. That's when Rivian pulled the data. Fast-forward to June of '22 when updates were emailed. CS told me that I would not get an update because there was no original window to update.

Background: I missed the 11/20/2020 cutoff for LE configurations. I knew the configurator had gone "live" on 11/16/20, but I was busy farming ... so that ship had sailed. I figured there was no hurry to configure an Adventure Package because I still had a fairly early preorder date. Then in late December of '21 I caught word that Rivian was going to send out delivery windows. So I logged into my Rivian account and configured my R1S on 12/24/2021. But the data had already been pulled for the emails that went out on 12/28. Over the first 6 months of 2022, I emailed CS three times, asking whether they could at least estimate in what year I should expect delivery. They would never commit to any date. The latest response from CS is shown in my signature.

When Rivian misses their own deadlines, nobody is surprised. When one of their preorder holders misses a deadline (and an unannounced deadline, at that), there are consequences. For me, the main consequence is that Rivian has not helped me plan.

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