Backup power - replacing a gas generator for now, V2H in future?

[johnbro23]

Rivian ups the game vs Tesla in that they're including 3 120v outlets (that's the case in the R1T - do we know for the R1S?). Tesla only has 12v outlets. We know there's enough output in the gear tunnel to power a 1,440 watt induction cooktop in the camp kitchen. That's 12 amps. Do we know if all outlets are on the same circuit meaning about 2,000 watts total, or do they have a setup like the F150 where total watts is something like 6,000 for the 3 outlets? This 6KW output would compare to a $1k gas generator. One of the benefits of the gas generator is that you can hook it up to a transfer switch to run the power straight into your home's circuits; whereas I don't think you can do that with the Rivian setup and you'll have to use extension cords all over the house (not bad tho for the occasional days-long power outage). Does anyone else plan to use the Rivian instead of a gas generator for storm outages, and is there a better solution other than extension cords?

Second, related topic, is forward looking. It would be amazing if Rivian had vehicle-to-home capability like the F150. It doesn't make sense to me that Ford would be the innovator here. What hurdle does Rivian need to clear to add V2H? Did Ford just choose to add a more expensive inverter to enable that output, meaning it's a pretty simple component swap for Rivian to enable this in the future? Or would this capability require more comprehensive adjustments to the battery architecture?

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[BigE]

Rivian ups the game vs Tesla in that they're including 3 120v outlets (that's the case in the R1T - do we know for the R1S?). Tesla only has 12v outlets. We know there's enough output in the gear tunnel to power a 1,440 watt induction cooktop in the camp kitchen. That's 12 amps. Do we know if all outlets are on the same circuit meaning about 2,000 watts total, or do they have a setup like the F150 where total watts is something like 6,000 for the 3 outlets? This 6KW output would compare to a $1k gas generator. One of the benefits of the gas generator is that you can hook it up to a transfer switch to run the power straight into your home's circuits; whereas I don't think you can do that with the Rivian setup and you'll have to use extension cords all over the house (not bad tho for the occasional days-long power outage). Does anyone else plan to use the Rivian instead of a gas generator for storm outages, and is there a better solution other than extension cords?

Second, related topic, is forward looking. It would be amazing if Rivian had vehicle-to-grid capability like the F150. It doesn't make sense to me that Ford would be the innovator here. What hurdle does Rivian need to clear to add V2G? Did Ford just choose to add a more expensive inverter to enable that output, meaning it's a pretty simple component swap for Rivian to enable this in the future? Or would this capability require more comprehensive adjustments to the battery architecture?

I think the correct term is V2H is what we are looking for and not V2G.

 

[skyote]

I'm very interested in higher amperage V2H functionality. Onboard 120V outlets won't cut it for what I want...

 

[johnbro23]

I'm very interested in higher amperage V2H functionality. Onboard 120V outlets won't cut it for what I want...

I agree, the 120v is less than ideal. I have an integrated fridge where you can't reach the outlet, so I'll have to move everything from the main fridge to the downstairs backup fridge. Same thing with the microwave, dishwasher - can't access the plug. Our boiler doesn't draw a lot of watts, but its hardwired, can't use hot water. I wish there was some way to do a transfer switch using Rivian power, seems like such an easy thing for them to add...

 

[ajdelange]

The Rivian 110V outlets are for the small appliances one would take glamping and not for backing up the house. The hurdle that Rivian would have to jump would involve the corporate decision to compete with Ford in this regard and re-wicker the charge port so that an external inverter could draw from the battery directly. Then the inverter would have to be connected to a proper transfer swithch. This is true V2H.

Tesla does not claim V2H but they do offer 7 kW @ 240 V via outlets in the truck bed. This can be connected to one of the selected circuits transfer switches commonly sold for small portable generators (3 - 7 kW).

You will, of course, be able to run an extension cord between any 120V appliance in your house and plug it into one of the outlets in the Rivian. I assume their inverter is pure sine but I don't remember seeing that explicitly stated.

 

[johnbro23]

The Rivian 110V outlets are for the small appliances one would take glamping and not for backing up the house. The hurdle that Rivian would have to jump would involve the corporate decision to compete with Ford in this regard and re-wicker the charge port so that an external inverter could draw from the battery directly. Then the inverter would have to be connected to a proper transfer swithch. This is true V2H.

Tesla does not claim V2H but they do offer 7 kW @ 240 V via outlets in the truck bed. This can be connected to one of the selected circuits transfer switches commonly sold for small portable generators (3 - 7 kW).

You will, of course, be able to run an extension cord between any 120V appliance in your house and plug it into one of the outlets in the Rivian. I assume their inverter is pure sine but I don't remember seeing that explicitky stated.

I found transfer switches made for taking power from the 120v output of a generator, or Rivian in this case, one linked below. In theory this is a good transfer switch solution for a few key circuits such as a hardwired furnace or fridge/microwave. You could have 3 male outlets in the garage, each feeds into a single circuit. You run short extension cords from the Rivian to them during an outage. I don't know if this would be worth it (not as robust as a multi-circuit transfer switch like you could do with Cybertruck) or even work properly (would it be OK for your electronics).
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-Furnace-Transfer-Switch-TF151/202216476#overlay

 

[SANZC02]

The Rivian 110V outlets are for the small appliances one would take glamping and not for backing up the house. The hurdle that Rivian would have to jump would involve the corporate decision to compete with Ford in this regard and re-wicker the charge port so that an external inverter could draw from the battery directly. Then the inverter would have to be connected to a proper transfer swithch. This is true V2H.

Tesla does not claim V2H but they do offer 7 kW @ 240 V via outlets in the truck bed. This can be connected to one of the selected circuits transfer switches commonly sold for small portable generators (3 - 7 kW).

You will, of course, be able to run an extension cord between any 120V appliance in your house and plug it into one of the outlets in the Rivian. I assume their inverter is pure sine but I don't remember seeing that explicitky stated.

I made the assumption that the charge port was already wired for this when they talk about the vehicle to vehicle charging. Last I asked CS about this, it was still going to be supported but no details were available.

I guess you could charge another vehicle from the 110 outlet but I would not really consider that VtoV charging as you may get 1.5 miles per hour. Will be interested in seeing the details around this as would be more productive doing a tow charge than using a 110 outlet.

 

[ajdelange]

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-Furnace-Transfer-Switch-TF151/202216476#overlay

That one is for a single circuit only. You'll want something more like this.
https://www.goalzero.com/shop/yeti-accessories/yeti-home-integration-kit/

 

[ajdelange]

I made the assumption that the charge port was already wired for this when they talk about the vehicle to vehicle charging. Last I asked CS about this, it was still going to be supported but no details were available.

I guess you could charge another vehicle from the 110 outlet but I would not really consider that VtoV charging as you may get 1.5 miles per hour. Will be interested in seeing the details around this as would be more productive doing a tow charge than using a 110 outlet.

For V2V you will definitely want a direct connection to the target battery but the source battery will have to be connected through a buck/boost DC/DC converter so that the source vehicle looks like a DC fast charger to the target vehicle. That's another matter.

 

[johnbro23]

That one is for a single circuit only. You'll want something more like this.
https://www.goalzero.com/shop/yeti-accessories/yeti-home-integration-kit/

Yes - amazing.

I made the assumption that the charge port was already wired for this when they talk about the vehicle to vehicle charging. Last I asked CS about this, it was still going to be supported but no details were available.

I guess you could charge another vehicle from the 110 outlet but I would not really consider that VtoV charging as you may get 1.5 miles per hour. Will be interested in seeing the details around this as would be more productive doing a tow charge than using a 110 outlet.

Very interesting - so proper vehicle to home might already be possible with current hardware, just not yet announced.. would be very surprised if that was the case but they weren't marketing it..

 

[DucRider]

Very interesting - so proper vehicle to home might already be possible with current hardware, just not yet announced.. would be very surprised if that was the case but they weren't marketing it..

V2H/G standards are contained in ISO 15118 (along with plug and charge and other protocols). The V2H/G sections have not been finalized or adopted by CharIN as part of the CCS protocols.

Ford has announced V2H and will either: a) implement these standards when they are finalized, or b) create their own standards and require users to purchase proprietary equipment to utilize it. I think "a" is much more likely.

Rivian will almost certainly fully implement the CCS standards and therefore their vehicles will be capable of V2H/G with equipment supplied by any manufacturer that also adheres to those standards (just like J1772 standard allows essentially all EVs to charge from any EVSE). Rivian is definitely not known for giving details before everything is 100% finalized, so not surprised they are not marketing it as a feature. It is likely that the first vehicles will not have it enabled since the standards are not yet adopted, but since no additional hardware on the vehicle side is required, an OTA update can implement it down the road.

 

[johnbro23]

V2H/G standards are contained in ISO 15118 (along with plug and charge and other protocols). The V2H/G sections have not been finalized or adopted by CharIN as part of the CCS protocols.

Ford has announced V2H and will either: a) implement these standards when they are finalized, or b) create their own standards and require users to purchase proprietary equipment to utilize it. I think "a" is much more likely.

Rivian will almost certainly fully implement the CCS standards and therefore their vehicles will be capable of V2H/G with equipment supplied by any manufacturer that also adheres to those standards (just like J1772 standard allows essentially all EVs to charge from any EVSE). Rivian is definitely not known for giving details before everything is 100% finalized, so not surprised they are not marketing it as a feature. It is likely that the first vehicles will not have it enabled since the standards are not yet adopted, but since no additional hardware on the vehicle side is required, an OTA update can implement it down the road.

I didn't realize CSS was already capable. If that were the case though, why wouldn't Ford market the Mustang Mach E as having this future capability as well, if they're just relying on standard EV hardware to make it happen with the F150?

And begs the question that if it was so easy technically, possible to implement on existing EV hardware, and only waiting on a CSS standard to be developed which Tesla doesn't even use, why wouldn't Teslas be capable of vehicle to home already?

Maybe the answer is that Rivian and F150 have an inverter and no other EVs do.

 

[SANZC02]

I didn't realize CSS was already capable. If that were the case though, why wouldn't Ford market the Mustang Mach E as having this future capability as well, if they're just relying on standard EV hardware to make it happen with the F150?

And begs the question that if it was so easy technically, possible to implement on existing EV hardware, and only waiting on a CSS standard to be developed which Tesla doesn't even use, why wouldn't Teslas be capable of vehicle to home already?

Maybe the answer is that Rivian and F150 have an inverter and no other EVs do.

Not saying it is easy and all cars could do it. They would have to have the proper setup for it, in the case of Ford they say they do, in the case of Rivian, assuming they might because of the VtoV charging.

It also requires having a charger that is capable of the function and having it installed with the proper cutoffs to ensure the lines are disconnected from the grid during a power outage so as not to energize the lines causing a potential hazard to the linemen.

 

[ajdelange]

No inverter is required in the vehicle. All that is required of the vehicle is that the battery terminals be connected to the DC pins on the plug just as they are during fast charging AND that this doesn't happen except when a charging session has been negotiated with a charger or a transfer to house or grid session has been authorized by the external equipment which, in the case of V2G comes from the grid and in the case of V2H comes from loss of grid as detected by the transfer switch which disconnects the house from the grid before authorizing the connection. All this is managed in software and via communication between the car and the external box. The fine print in the Ford blurb specificlly mentions the transfer switch.

 

[ajdelange]

I am in complete agreement

The answer is from the sun. One can install solar cells and Powerwalls to run his house (still connected to the grid) and the Powerwalls will run the house when the grid is down. But those things are $7500 a pop, are delivered on Elon time and only hold 13.5 kWh. It's tempting to say gee, I've got 180 kWh of battery just sitting there in that truck. Why not use it? The answer is because you may wind up with a low battery when you need a full battery most and the other is because all that round trip current flow is ageing you battery just as normal charge/drive cycles do even though you aren't driving. When I voice this objection the usual response is "Oh, but were going to have the million mile batteries soon." When soon gets here we can resume the conversation.

Now if you are willing to spring for the batteries such systems become very nice. The utility and or solar keep your car and the Powerwalls charged so that if the utility goes down the Powerwalls immediately take over and, if you have enough solar and batteries you'll never take from the utilty and are protected from outages and sunless days.

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