20" Nitto Recon Grappler AT tires 25% more efficient than Pirelli OEM AT! The holy grail!

[onesoil]

Have you had a chance to run these off-road or in mud, dirt roads, or snow? How do you think these compare to something like the Falken Wildpeak AT3W or Baja Boss A/T for true off-road?

My dad's R1T with 18k miles has gotten very loud. He is looking for a replacement ASAP, so I've been trying to find a good recommendation for him that offers a good balance of range, noise, and capability. Most of his driving is on-road, but a fair bit is on the (often very muddy) VT back roads and on and around our Compost sites (think muddy farm roads for a decent bit of the year).

I'm about to get a demo truck with ~10k miles on stock 20" Pirellis, and will be looking for an A/T tire replacement next spring (I plan to run the stock Pirellis tires until winter tire season next fall, then get something better next Spring). I haven't decided yet whether I want a more aggressive tire for more capability (with less range), or whether I want something on par with the stock tires from a range/capability perspective. I'm very curious to hear how these Nittos compare in the mud/snow and from an off-road durability perspective.

My dad is hoping to find a tire he can run year-round that does better than the Pirellis in the winter and mud seasons (here in Vermont, it's been muddy on our dirt roads for most of a year now with the mild, wet winter we had and an extremely wet 2023 Spring/Summer/Fall).

This is the first time I've heard of these Nittos, but I was leaning towards recommening the Nokian Outpost nAT even though I havne't see much discussion about them for the R1 platform. Do you think these two are contenders as good 20" all-arounders?

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[moonjeong]

Honestly I am a little skeptical on this claim. I have the Nitro Recon Grapplers, admittedly the LT version that are heavier but in general this shouldn't matter much for highway efficiency. That said due to my camper I can't really compare efficiencies.

The tread is pretty aggressive on these tires. At a minimum be careful on grooved highways as the side lugs on these tires like to grip onto things on rough roads causing the truck to get squirrelly.

I have done a lot of calcs and these weren’t even in my choice list because of the online reviews of the LTs, but glad i pulled the trigger. I just towed a side by side for 500 miles over the weekend - it was beautiful and handles awesome in the highway.

I still can’t believe it, but after 1k miles and muiltiple commutes across temps, i can’t dispute the data. I don’t post a lot, but i was looking for the best tire on looks, feel, range and wanted to share with the group.

One more thought, the LT not only weighs more, but the increase in weight happens farther away from the axle, so that likely is a big impact. I also thought that on the highway the weight wouldn’t make much of a difference, but that didn’t hold on the platinum vs. the Grappler ATs…

One more crazy thing, which i need to do more testing on: on platinum the difference between econ and normal mode was like a 20% spread… with these Nitto ATs, my guestimator based on a few trips is more like 10% or less spread.

 

[moonjeong]

Thank you for allowing us to earn your business. Thank you for the report out. The feedback is appreciated. Looking forward to hearing how the Nitto's perform for you over time.

Thank you! I would have never chosen these tires! This was at the Cumming, GA location so kudos to that store! They were patient with me through this jouirney!

 

[moonjeong]

Have you had a chance to run these off-road or in mud, dirt roads, or snow? How do you think these compare to something like the Falken Wildpeak AT3W or Baja Boss A/T for true off-road?

My dad's R1T with 18k miles has gotten very loud. He is looking for a replacement ASAP, so I've been trying to find a good recommendation for him that offers a good balance of range, noise, and capability. Most of his driving is on-road, but a fair bit is on the (often very muddy) VT back roads and on and around our Compost sites (think muddy farm roads for a decent bit of the year).

I'm about to get a demo truck with ~10k miles on stock 20" Pirellis, and will be looking for an A/T tire replacement next spring (I plan to run the stock Pirellis tires until winter tire season next fall, then get something better next Spring). I haven't decided yet whether I want a more aggressive tire for more capability (with less range), or whether I want something on par with the stock tires from a range/capability perspective. I'm very curious to hear how these Nittos compare in the mud/snow and from an off-road durability perspective.

My dad is hoping to find a tire he can run year-round that does better than the Pirellis in the winter and mud seasons (here in Vermont, it's been muddy on our dirt roads for most of a year now with the mild, wet winter we had and an extremely wet 2023 Spring/Summer/Fall).

This is the first time I've heard of these Nittos, but I was leaning towards recommening the Nokian Outpost nAT even though I havne't see much discussion about them for the R1 platform. Do you think these two are contenders as good 20" all-arounders?

I’ve done very light mudd - pretty good, but that is very subjective. The Falken and Bajas are significantly heavier so the range will be bad.

I always thought Nitto’s were second class… now i changed my view of them (at least in the first 1k miles). I haven’t tried the Nokian, but hey with this look and efficiency, i will not look elsewhere.

 

[jjswan33]

I have done a lot of calcs and these weren’t even in my choice list because of the online reviews of the LTs, but glad i pulled the trigger. I just towed a side by side for 500 miles over the weekend - it was beautiful and handles awesome in the highway.

I still can’t believe it, but after 1k miles and muiltiple commutes across temps, i can’t dispute the data. I don’t post a lot, but i was looking for the best tire on looks, feel, range and wanted to share with the group.

One more thought, the LT not only weighs more, but the increase in weight happens farther away from the axle, so that likely is a big impact. I also thought that on the highway the weight wouldn’t make much of a difference, but that didn’t hold on the platinum vs. the Grappler ATs…

One more crazy thing, which i need to do more testing on: on platinum the difference between econ and normal mode was like a 20% spread… with these Nitto ATs, my guestimator based on a few trips is more like 10% or less spread.

Don't get me wrong. I wish you all the best with your tire choice.

Conservation of angular momentum means that tire weight doesn't matter at a constant speed. In fact since I run my tires at ~60 psi I think losses due to hysteresis would be less at constant highway speed.

 

[moonjeong]

Don't get me wrong. I wish you all the best with your tire choice.

Conservation of angular momentum means that tire weight doesn't matter at a constant speed. In fact since I run my tires at ~60 psi I think losses due to hysteresis would be less at constant highway speed.

You are right on the angular momentum. I think there are other variables that are yielding the results. I’m not a physicist, but have to imagine that hardness/softness of the rubber exerts different pressure on the road - even with the coefficient of friction being the same, it takes more to move… angular momentum in a vacuum holds… believe me, i really wanted this theory to hold when i got my platinums… those were expensive…. So lost a little money when i returned those to get the chepaer Nittos… I ran my Platinums at 60 psi. These Nittos i run at 45.

Let’s see if the efficiency holds as i continue to add miles!

 

[moonjeong]

Don't get me wrong. I wish you all the best with your tire choice.

Conservation of angular momentum means that tire weight doesn't matter at a constant speed. In fact since I run my tires at ~60 psi I think losses due to hysteresis would be less at constant highway speed.

Forgot to mention the con of these 116 rated tires is that they are not tough as the LTs… so if you do heavy offroad and towing, the LTs are the better choice i think.,..

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

I would certainly not describe the feel of the Michelin Defenders in Sport Mode as "wobbly" or dangerous. Maybe slightly less grippy than the OEM Pirellis on a full send launch, but when I've gotten into Sport Mode for spirited driving I have found them to corner very well.

 

[onesoil]

I’ve done very light mudd - pretty good, but that is very subjective. The Falken and Bajas are significantly heavier so the range will be bad.

I always thought Nitto’s were second class… now i changed my view of them (at least in the first 1k miles). I haven’t tried the Nokian, but hey with this look and efficiency, i will not look elsewhere.

Thanks for putting these Nittos on my radar. It's great to hear that there are some more efficient A/T options than stock Pirellis out there.

I know the Falkens and Baja Bosses are a whole different animal (on the opposite spectrum of the A/T market from a weight, durability, off-road capability spectrum), so probably not worth bringing into the discussion (just a set of compromises I have to decide when I go to replace the Pirellis for my truck, which will hopefully be better informed by how I end up using the truck personally over the next year).

That being said, until I've heard how these perform on really muddy back roads and with light snow/slush/etc. that VT gets through much of the fall/winter/spring, I'm a little hesitant to recommend to my dad just yet. Some of the tirerack.com reviews seemed mixed on many fronts, which gives me a little pause—one person claiming that they run well in deep snow, but terribly on 2-3 inches of slush (a common occurance here in VT—even outside of when you would normally have winter tires on for the season).

I'll be following as you and others get a chance to run these tires through more variable conditions, and in climates closer to where we are.

 

[jjswan33]

You are right on the angular momentum. I think there are other variables that are yielding the results. I’m not a physicist, but have to imagine that hardness/softness of the rubber exerts different pressure on the road - even with the coefficient of friction being the same, it takes more to move… angular momentum in a vacuum holds… believe me, i really wanted this theory to hold when i got my platinums… those were expensive…. So lost a little money when i returned those to get the chepaer Nittos… I ran my Platinums at 60 psi. These Nittos i run at 45.

Let’s see if the efficiency holds as i continue to add miles!

I actually am a physicist but haven't done a problem like this in 13-14 years when I was in grad school. Thinking about doing the math on this problem hurts my head...
For the record I don't have any complaints about my Recon Grapplers, other than they don't have a 3peak rating but I found they handled fine in the snow when I needed them to. In fact I have been very happy with the tread wear on the tires as well.

Forgot to mention the con of these 116 rated tires is that they are not tough as the LTs… so if you do heavy offroad and towing, the LTs are the better choice i think.,..

The LT version was the only choice for me. I flirt with the upper end of GVWR quite a bit and wanted to make sure I had that extra support.

 

[Discount Tire]

Thank you! I would have never chosen these tires! This was at the Cumming, GA location so kudos to that store! They were patient with me through this jouirney!

Thank you for the kind words! I will be sure to convey your thoughts to store personnel and the local regional staff.

 

[LL75]

You are right on the angular momentum. I think there are other variables that are yielding the results. I’m not a physicist, but have to imagine that hardness/softness of the rubber exerts different pressure on the road - even with the coefficient of friction being the same, it takes more to move… angular momentum in a vacuum holds… believe me, i really wanted this theory to hold when i got my platinums… those were expensive…. So lost a little money when i returned those to get the chepaer Nittos… I ran my Platinums at 60 psi. These Nittos i run at 45.

Let’s see if the efficiency holds as i continue to add miles!

I'm not entirely sold on the angular momentum either. My current set is about 20 lbs lighter each wheel than the stock 21" and I only see slight improvement highway and in city.

 

[moonjeong]

I would certainly not describe the feel of the Michelin Defenders in Sport Mode as "wobbly" or dangerous. Maybe slightly less grippy than the OEM Pirellis on a full send launch, but when I've gotten into Sport Mode for spirited driving I have found them to corner very well.

Subjective… if i were to put scores on the slalom situation above ~~40 MPH, i would give the Pirelli ATs a 7, the defender 5, platinum 6, and Nitto 7. Cornering they were good and similar For all 3, with the Defender LTX slightly better… my concern was in fast swirving. I had an emergency situation that put me on the edge that was like a quick left then rigth to avoid an obstacle…. Then i reproduced it with the Defenders, that’s when i said i need to let these go… the Platinums did not have the problem nor the NIttos… again subjective….

 

[R1Sky Business]

I’ve run 25k miles on my R1T beginning with my Pirelli OEM AT 20”. Those lasted about 17k miles before the noise was unbearable. I’ve tried several tires since then and found the holy grail of looks, comfort, and efficiency:

1. Pierelli OEM AT 275/65/20: good response, traction, and longetivity. Horrible noise and very stiff. Switched out at 17k miles and historical 1.85 M/kw
2. Michelin Defender LTX MS2 in 275/60/20: These reduced the size of my tire to 33”, but it was butter smooth, quiet, and efficiency jumped to around 2.4 M/KW. Looked bland, actually i hated the look. Was going to keep until i put it in sport in a spirited drive. These tires made the rivian dangerous - wobly, lack of traction. I had around 2k miles i changed them.
3. Michelin Defender Platinum 275/65/20: good look, quiet, soft - even for an LT tire. Traction was not great, but steering response was ok. Over 5k miles, it gave me an average of 1.9 M/kw. The reason i changed them out was because vibrations would always come back after 500-800 miles of being balanced.
4. Nitto Recon Grappler AT 116 275/65/20: AWESOME! Soft, quiet (not as quiet as the LTX), awesome look, no vibration. Best of all? I’m averaging 2.4 M/kw in my first 1k miles! I think it will do better once things settle more. The reason i believe so is because my commute is about 30 miles and with these, i’m consuming around 9% whereas my defender LTX was overing around 10%, with the OEM being around 12-13%.

The peson at Discount Tire pushed me towards the Nitto after my fails with the Michelins - i was not going to listen to him, but he said i will not regret. He told me that these weigh like 48lbs, the lightest AT, are 116 so will be soft and quiet vs an LT, and are much more efficient vs the Recon Grappler non AT. I’m so glad i did, so passing along to this forum! Adding pictrures of the three tires so you can see the look.

116s or 116t?

 

[moonjeong]

I'm not entirely sold on the angular momentum either. My current set is about 20 lbs lighter each wheel than the stock 21" and I only see slight improvement highway and in city.

Man 20 lb ligher each that the stock 21” sure? The stock 21s are very light…

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