Official Cold Weather Driving Thread (Tips, Tricks, Tears)

[DucRider]

Pulled data from other 5-cycle applications (VW/Audi do not list the cold data)

49% Lucid Air Dream Performance
36% 2021 Tesla Model 3 SR+
37% 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid 19"
36% 2021 Tesla Model S Performance 21"
36% 2021 Tesla Model S LR

The test cycle hit to the Rivian is only slightly more than Tesla vehicles. I think this particular test cycle may overstate the actual impact for most owners.

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[yizzung]

@yizzung you mentioned you have destination charging on both ends, so your likely worst case scenario will be a really quick charge mid-trip (he said assuming one is on the way) as you can roll in relatively low (as low as you feel comfortable) and be confident you'll be charged when you need you car next.

Yeah, this seems right. I'm now less worried about San Francisco to Tahoe (starting at 30' above sea level and driving to 6500'). In California you don't hit snow typically until the last 50 miles of the 180-mile trip. That said, I've been stuck on that 50-mile stretch for many, many hours in both directions during big storms. I guess a good rule of thumb would be to stop and charge on the way up if you know you're driving into gnarly weather.

Colorado could be trickier. You start in Denver at 5280' feet, which gets much colder than San Francisco does. It can obviously be cold/snowing throughout the entire length of the journey. While there are closer ski resorts to Denver (e.g. Breck @ 80 miles), Aspen in particular is 200 miles away in the winter.

I'm also pretty underwhelmed with the EV charging infrastructure in Colorado compared to California. Looking at a map on plugshare, there are only a couple of options. Guess I'll need to put my faith in the build-out of the RAN.

 

[Capt_Lou]

I knew there would be cold weather range decreases, but 40% has me questioning not just my R1T preorder but this whole generation of EV’s.

Where we live (central NH) it will be below freezing from mid November to mid April and 20 or below for at least 2 months in mid winter. We even had a year recently where it was below zero for a month straight.

For most of my uses this would not be an issue (eg driving around town) but during the winter we usually drive ~2 hours one way (80-120 miles) to various mountains to ski every weekend. Some of these places have chargers, but very few, and they’re usually already taken before the mountain even opens. So more than likely the vehicle would be cold soaking for 8 hours in a parking lot having already depleted a significant amount of range. For reference our hybrid highlander will do most of these round trips on 1/2 to 3/4 of a tank.

Max pack would alleviate some of these issues but I’m not sure I can stomach 80k for a vehicle (any vehicle, looking at you lightning) that could lose almost half of its range for almost half of the year.

I realize these are probably worst case scenario numbers, but I’d frequently be in similar to worse situations (eg -10F two day cold soak at a condo with no option for a plug in).

I feel real anxiety every time I fill up one of our vehicles at the gas station and I despise the companies that extract the oil, so I have been itching to replace our vehicles with EV’s, even willing to risk being an early adopter.

Now I’m starting to consider PHEV mini vans (even though they are much less capable) as a stopgap until the next generation of batteries.

 

[yizzung]

I knew there would be cold weather range decreases, but 40% has me questioning not just my R1T preorder but this whole generation of EV’s.

Where we live (central NH) it will be below freezing from mid November to mid April and 20 or below for at least 2 months in mid winter. We even had a year recently where it was below zero for a month straight.

For most of my uses this would not be an issue (eg driving around town) but during the winter we usually drive ~2 hours one way (80-120 miles) to various mountains to ski every weekend. Some of these places have chargers, but very few, and they’re usually already taken before the mountain even opens. So more than likely the vehicle would be cold soaking for 8 hours in a parking lot having already depleted a significant amount of range. For reference our hybrid highlander will do most of these round trips on 1/2 to 3/4 of a tank.

Max pack would alleviate some of these issues but I’m not sure I can stomach 80k for a vehicle (any vehicle, looking at you lightning) that could lose almost half of its range for almost half of the year.

I realize these are probably worst case scenario numbers, but I’d frequently be in similar to worse situations (eg -10F two day cold soak at a condo with no option for a plug in).

I feel real anxiety every time I fill up one of our vehicles at the gas station and I despise the companies that extract the oil, so I have been itching to replace our vehicles with EV’s, even willing to risk being an early adopter.

Now I’m starting to consider PHEV mini vans (even though they are much less capable) as a stopgap until the next generation of batteries.

I’m not quite ready to jump completely off the ledge but I feel your anxiety. If there’s a charger anywhere along your route, you’ll probably be fine.

2nd, you might not need a dedicated EV charger to make this work. Even a 110v “lamp cord” running from one of these condos could help with just keeping the battery from cold soaking the entire time.

Lastly, isn’t Rivian supposed to help us out with its charging network? I’m very confident that they are going to mirror some of Tesla’s moves by putting chargers at popular ski resorts. That’s a leap of faith but they’ve already struck a deal to put chargers in every CO state park (along with other states).

They must know they’ll need chargers between major metro areas and outdoor destinations. I-70 in Colorado. I-80 in CA. The route from LA to Mammoth. Etc. How quickly they get there is a mystery.

 

[crashmtb]

a big question regarding charging is how rapidly will the gas station companies add EV charging, once EV adoption begins to pick up?

in Canada, petro-Canada has added DC fast charging from coast to coast on the trans-Canada highway. Other chains are starting to follow suit.

Shell has EV charging at stations worldwide, except in North America.

EV charging is already not much slower than a gas stop on a road trip - after all, when getting gas, you can’t really do anything else for the 5-15 minutes it takes to tank up. It’s put gas in the car, then go to the bathroom and get a snack etc. at least with an EV one can leave it charging and do something else while waiting.

 

[yizzung]

On the one hand they’d love to take your money for beef jerky and soda. On the other hand, they want no part in contributing to their own ultimate demise. Also 2-3% EV market share keeps it super niche.

 

[Capt_Lou]

I’m not quite ready to jump completely off the ledge but I feel your anxiety. If there’s a charger anywhere along your route, you’ll probably be fine.

2nd, you might not need a dedicated EV charger to make this work. Even a 110v “lamp cord” running from one of these condos could help with just keeping the battery from cold soaking the entire time.

Lastly, isn’t Rivian supposed to help us out with its charging network? I’m very confident that they are going to mirror some of Tesla’s moves by putting chargers at popular ski resorts. That’s a leap of faith but they’ve already struck a deal to put chargers in every CO state park (along with other states).

They must know they’ll need chargers between major metro areas and outdoor destinations. I-70 in Colorado. I-80 in CA. The route from LA to Mammoth. Etc. How quickly they get there is a mystery.

Yeah I hope Rivian is going to solve some of these issues, it’s just a ton of money on the line.

I’m sure there are chargers on the way to nearly every place I’d go but the family is used to straight shots for these trips and the wife is already highly skeptical of the costs of an EV so it would be a tough sell to say that a truck that costs 30k more than an ICE or hybrid vehicle has significant disadvantages.

I’ve had use for a truck for 15 years now and have always delayed purchase because I couldn’t stomach the MPG from an environmental sense. I realize that for most people personal convenience comes before societal good, and I’m trying to stick to my guns but at this point I’m wondering whether I’m going to have to wait another 10 years (I’ll be 50 then!) or get what I need and use the extra 30k to buy solar panels. It’s agonizing.

If the new Tundra was a PHEV (if any pickup was) this would have made the decision for me. Unfortunately Toyota appears to be copying what the big three did 5 years ago and has delivered a pretty dated, disappointing truck (although I’ve come to expect this from Toyota).

I sure hope these problems get solved and / or the EPA findings don’t translate to the real world, but I’m not crossing my fingers.

 

[crashmtb]

On the one hand they’d love to take your money for beef jerky and soda. On the other hand, they want no part in contributing to their own ultimate demise. Also 2-3% EV market share keeps it super niche.

Pfft, snax at gas station prices!? I brings my own snacks!
And now I’m bringing an entire kitchen with me!

ultimately the shells and the chevrons and etc are energy companies, and will sell it in whatever form makes them money.

 

[DucRider]

I’m sure there are chargers on the way to nearly every place I’d go but the family is used to straight shots for these trips and the wife is already highly skeptical of the costs of an EV so it would be a tough sell to say that a truck that costs 30k more than an ICE or hybrid vehicle has significant disadvantages.

Cabin heat is the major range suck.

Convincing your family that they needed to wear all of their ski gear for the drive up and back would allow you to increase your range dramatically. Good luck selling that one!

In all seriousness, people looking to drive in winter conditions need to understand there will be a significant range hit. Exactly how much we won't know until we start to get some feedback, but it looks like the Rivian will be in line with others as far as this is concerned. A 240 mile round trip to/from a ski area is more than I would expect from a 314/316 mile EV. The fact that you will be climbing a mountain will have a range impact. Add in inclement weather, cold temps, and cabin heat and you will likely come up short at least some of the time (or with a remaining range buffer too small for comfort).

 

[Capt_Lou]

Cabin heat is the major range suck.

Convincing your family that they needed to wear all of their ski gear for the drive up and back would allow you to increase your range dramatically. Good luck selling that one!

The good news is we already travel in gear (except in spring) minus the boots so we can get on the slopes ASAP.

Maybe this is just too early to transition to BEV’s for my use case. I’ve got time to figure it out, hopefully there’ll be some 500 mile options in the pipeline or better battery chemistry.

 

[DucRider]

The good news is we already travel in gear (except in spring) minus the boots so we can get on the slopes ASAP.

Maybe this is just too early to transition to BEV’s for my use case. I’ve got time to figure it out, hopefully there’ll be some 500 mile options in the pipeline or better battery chemistry.

I didn't even mention that freeway speeds (likely for at least part of the 240 miles) and A/T or snow tires (almost a given) would be an additional range hit.

Battery chemistry is not the real issue. Very little range reduction in the cold is due to the batteries themselves.

It will take a bit of a reset, but a 10-15 minute stop on the way home for a top off QC is likely the best solution (assuming a fast charge rate and a location to do so). Not stopping on the way home will add thousands of dollars to the cost of any vehicle for the additional batteries. Many people find the inconvenience of a stop or two on a longer trip is more than offset by not having to do so for "normal" usage (overnight charging at home is often underrated). YMMV

 

[Capt_Lou]

I didn't even mention that freeway speeds (likely for at least part of the 240 miles) and A/T or snow tires (almost a given) would be an additional range hit.

Battery chemistry is not the real issue. Very little range reduction in the cold is due to the batteries themselves.

It will take a bit of a reset, but a 10-15 minute stop on the way home for a top off QC is likely the best solution (assuming a fast charge rate and a location to do so). Not stopping on the way home will add thousands of dollars to the cost of any vehicle for the additional batteries. Many people find the inconvenience of a stop or two on a longer trip is more than offset by not having to do so for "normal" usage (overnight charging at home is often underrated). YMMV

I hadn’t thought of it like that. I’ll literally never have to touch a gas pump again or stand there breathing in the fumes for 5 minutes.

thanks for the perspective.

 

[Scott]

It will take a bit of a reset, but a 10-15 minute stop on the way home for a top off QC is likely the best solution (assuming a fast charge rate and a location to do so). Not stopping on the way home will add thousands of dollars to the cost of any vehicle for the additional batteries. Many people find the inconvenience of a stop or two on a longer trip is more than offset by not having to do so for "normal" usage (overnight charging at home is often underrated). YMMV

Yup, in my mind adding 30 minutes 3-4 days a year I drive beyond the range of my EV is more than offset by never needing to go to a gas station the other 360 days a year.

My only concerns with EV range are around going to places that have no charging infrastructure far in to the back country. Being off the grid for a few days is harder in an EV than a ICE.

 

[DucRider]

I hadn’t thought of it like that. I’ll literally never have to touch a gas pump again or stand there breathing in the fumes for 5 minutes.

thanks for the perspective.

When we got our first EV, my wife literally said "I didn't know what a pain it was to go to the gas station until I didn't have to anymore."
We got rid of our last ICE this summer and are now a two EV household. Up until that time, getting gas for the hybrid became my duty. She decided she really didn't like going to the gas station

 

[Trekkie]

This is a 2019 Model X Standard edition. I have road tripped this in the winter. It's max range is 245 miles (lol I've *never* gotten this)

Here is my Wh/Mile since I bought the car, you can see that I have not been super cold as I live in NC but the worst efficiency % from the release 100% number is 63.9 vs 85 being the sweet spot of 75-80 degrees F.

I have about 20k miles on the car, and that includes three roadtrips, one in the summer and two in the winter (2200 miles each, all highway)

In the winter I turn on 'range mode' which limits the amount the heating system runs. It is much more efficient if you just turn on the seat heaters and don't run the cabin but after a while your nose gets cold.

Based on my experience with the Bolt EV and Fiat 500E as well, I would challenge that 40% loss number, that seems extreme. 25% has been my experience and the Fiat 500E was a 'look we crammed an electric motor in a car be happy with us' type of car not a well designed thing.

Maybe this is somewhere that gets below 20 Deg F regularly?

We'll get real world numbers Soon (tm) as people get these but that 40% I wonder how they got that.

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