Tesla nefarious behavior?

[COdogman]

You can literally look at the NHTSA crash statistics for yourself

Reported accidents with FSD are pretty rare because fsd accidents in the past were clipping curbs and damaging wheels/suspension

Even with the new actually smart summon, I've not seen any evidence of actually smart summon ever hitting another car. In the old version from years ago, it would do that

Excuse me for not taking your word for it. Why aren't you holding Tesla to the same standard as you do a YouTuber?

Here is some analysis using those NHTSA stats you referred me to:

Last year, Musk also announced that FSD has driven 150 million miles, which means each of the 400,000 cars with the technology fitted drove an average of 375 miles each while using FSD. But thanks to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), we also know that from 2021 to the end of 2023, Teslas had 736 crashes, 17 of them fatal, while using automation, the vast majority of which happened in late 2022–2023. It’s safe to assume that most of these happened with FSD rather than the less capable autopilot system, as the option was heavily pushed during this time of increased crashes. But that implies that FSD has a fatal accident rate of 11.3 deaths per 100 million miles travelled. For comparison, the fatal accident rate for us humans driving in 2022 was 1.35 deaths per 100 million miles travelled.

In other words, it seems FSD is around 10 times less safe than human drivers! What’s more, FSD isn’t a fully self-driving feature, despite what it is called, and needs to be supervised by a human driver at all times to step in when FSD gets things wrong. This means that the fatal crash rate could be exponentially higher if used as an actual self-driving car! What’s more, human drivers are still having to concentrate on the road and make decisions about when to intervene with FSD. In other words, they are still driving. So, there is an argument that using FSD makes us 10 times worse at driving.

Now, you could argue that not all of those accidents used FSD, but to meet Musk’s claims that FSD is 5 times safer than a human, only 2% can be from FSD. If that were the case, then it suggests Autopilot is massively unsafe, and Tesla should stop fitting cars with it immediately, especially when FSD is so much safer! But, roughly 19% of Tesla customers opt to buy FSD in the US. If we assume these crashes are proportionate to this ratio (19% with FSD, 81% Autopilot), then FSD still comes out with a fatal accident rate over twice that of a human driver!
/QUOTE]

https://www.planetearthandbeyond.co/p/self-driving-cars-are-way-more-dangerous

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[pamalabama]

Excuse me for not taking your word for it. Why aren't you holding Tesla to the same standard as you do a YouTuber?

Here is some analysis using those NHTSA stats you referred me to:

Are you serious? That's not the NHTSA crash statistics. Firstly, most people did not have FSD until 2024 when the 30 day trial happened.

There are only 2 reported deaths with FSD.

 

[COdogman]

Are you serious? That's not the NHTSA crash statistics. Firstly, most people did not have FSD until 2024

It is truly sad the lengths you will go to defend this. The article refers to the stats. No one said we were only counting 2024 stats or only counting FSD. Those are limits you are now placing on the discussion.

The question is whether Tesla's autonomous driving systems are as safe as you and they claim. As you can see, they are not. The only "proof" you have offered is your own opinions and attempts to move the goalposts again and again.

 

[pamalabama]

It is truly sad the lengths you will go to defend this. The article refers to the stats. No one said we were only counting 2024 stats or only counting FSD. Those are limits you are now placing on the discussion.

The question is whether Tesla's autonomous driving systems are as safe as you and they claim. As you can see, they are not. The only "proof" you have offered is your own opinions and attempts to move the goalposts again and again.

I posted many times on this forum.

There is an independent website called tesladeaths.com which tracks every death associated with a tesla.

Only 2 deaths from FSD

FSD has driven over 3 billion miles. That means 1 accident for every 1.5+ billion miles. That's actually a good statistic.

 

[COdogman]

I posted many times on this forum.

There is an independent website called tesladeaths.com which tracks every death associated with a tesla.

Only 2 deaths from FSD

FSD has driven over 3 billion miles. That means 1 accident for every 1.5+ billion miles. That's actually a good statistic.

That is crowdsourced information. Avoiding the point (again). Why do you hold a YouTuber to higher standards than Tesla?

 

[Donald Stanfield]

I posted many times on this forum.

There is an independent website called tesladeaths.com which tracks every death associated with a tesla.

Only 2 deaths from FSD

FSD has driven over 3 billion miles. That means 1 accident for every 1.5+ billion miles. That's actually a good statistic.

So we are supposed to trust some jerkoff Tesla death.com website over NHTSA? The dissonance here is reaching new heights.

 

[pamalabama]

So we are supposed to trust some jerkoff Tesla death.com website over NHTSA? The dissonance here is reaching new heights.

The tesladeaths web site takes every reported death from NHTSA and correctly attributes it to where it came from.

unlike some people who blanketly claim that FSD kills people, they research every death and find out the cause.

 

[pamalabama]

That is crowdsourced information. Avoiding the point (again). Why do you hold a YouTuber to higher standards than Tesla?

the tesladeaths data is crowdsourced from the NHTSA. They are just doing the time consuming work of identifying every death and the cause

you just refuse to accept that people are dying from FSD. It's quite simple. FSD has some of the strictest driver monitoring of any system. FSD has a strike system. You get 5 strikes and you lose FSD access

 

[COdogman]

the tesladeaths data is crowdsourced from the NHTSA. They are just doing the time consuming work of identifying every death and the cause

you just refuse to accept that people are dying from FSD. It's quite simple. FSD has some of the strictest driver monitoring of any system. FSD has a strike system. You get 5 strikes and you lose FSD access

It does not answer the question of whether Tesla AP/ FSD is safer than a human driver, as claimed by Tesla and others in this thread. Those are death stats, which is terrible enough, but does not count serious injuries, near misses, etc.... ALL of that together answers the question. Based on the crash analysis they are much less safe than a human. Why are you still avoiding that fact?

I am done going back and forth with you. You are incapable of looking at this honestly.

 

[pamalabama]

It does not answer the question of whether Tesla AP/ FSD is safer than a human driver, as claimed by Tesla and others in this thread. Those are death stats, which is terrible enough, but does not count serious injuries, near misses, etc.... ALL of that together answers the question. Based on the crash analysis they are much less safe than a human. Why are you still avoiding that fact?

I am done going back and forth with you. You are incapable of looking at this honestly.

Tesla FSD literally does not cause serious injuries. You are incapable of seeing that a system does not just run into every thin it sees. Most of tesla accidents are at low speed.

Look at waymo. Their accident rate is much higher than the average human. But waymo drives in such a mechanical by-the-rules way that they open themselves up to these accidents, whether at fault or not.

These accidents are at low speed and modern cars are safe.

Likewise, tesla's most egregious mistakes are NOT hitting other cars or pedestrians which is a relatively simple problem compared to all the other things you can run into.

Someone dying or getting seriously hurt using FSD is a big event. These events are cataloged by every local news station.

In the case of the first guy to ever die with FSD beta, it was because a tractor trailer pulled out in front of the car. The driver of the tractor trailer was charged with reckless driving until it was found that the FSD beta owner had dialed his speed up to 70mph in a 45.

This doesn't happen unless you dial up the speed in the early versions of FSD beta which you can no longer do

 

[COdogman]

Tesla FSD literally does not cause serious injuries. You are incapable of seeing that a system does not just run into every thin it sees. Most of tesla accidents are at low speed.

Look at waymo. Their accident rate is much higher than the average human. But waymo drives in such a mechanical by-the-rules way that they open themselves up to these accidents, whether at fault or not.

These accidents are at low speed and modern cars are safe.

Likewise, tesla's most egregious mistakes are NOT hitting other cars or pedestrians which is a relatively simple problem compared to all the other things you can run into.

Someone dying or getting seriously hurt using FSD is a big event. These events are cataloged by every local news station.

In the case of the first guy to ever die with FSD beta, it was because a tractor trailer pulled out in front of the car. The driver of the tractor trailer was charged with reckless driving until it was found that the FSD beta owner had dialed his speed up to 70mph in a 45.

This doesn't happen unless you dial up the speed in the early versions of FSD beta which you can no longer do

So now you are saying we should just check the news to verify how safe FSD is. This is a new low....

Have a great afternoon

 

[theonetruestripes]

Is this nefarious behavior by Tesla? Full self driving switches off one second before collision.

Nope, self driving levels 1 through 4 should switch off as soon as they figure out they have ben bamboozled. At level 5 they “should’t” be able to be fooled as at level 5 there is no requirement that a human driver be ready to take over.

As far as who is at fault with a self driving car according to the FHA if a self driving system disengages fewer then ten seconds before the accident it is “at fault” because it hasn’t given woman reasonable time to figure out they are “in charge” and expected to form and execute a plan for correcting the mess the computer made.

So FSD giving up a fraction ahead of an accident isn’t much “heads up”, but it is better then none at all...and still so little that the FHA would rule any accident to be cause by FSD (or I guess the roadrunner’s sign).

 

[pamalabama]

So now you are saying we should just check the news to verify how safe FSD is. This is a new low....

Have a great afternoon

Well if the alternative is assuming that FSD is unsafe. I think it's just that non tesla owners are very jealous of FSD and wish they had access to it.

look how many people praise rivian's blatantly unsafe ADAS system

 

[Donald Stanfield]

The tesladeaths web site takes every reported death from NHTSA and correctly attributes it to where it came from.

unlike some people who blanketly claim that FSD kills people, they research every death and find out the cause.

I'll stick with NHTSA instead of some random dude with a website. No wonder you don't understand how dangerous FSD is, you don't understand what a good source is.

 

[pamalabama]

I'll stick with NHTSA instead of some random dude with a website. No wonder you don't understand how dangerous FSD is, you don't understand what a good source is.

you think some random dude is here to make tesla look good with a website named tesladeaths.com?

And in fact all of these deaths go through a vetting process so that the correct source of the death is correctly attributed.

If someone does using FSD it is BIG news. Any death in a car is big news.

I don't think it's possible to die in a car crash and it not be reported somewhere

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