Tesla Breached Contract on FSD, Arbitrator Rules – Ordered to Refund Owner

[Zoidz]

Article

"Tesla has been ordered to refund US$10,600, plus arbitration costs, to a Model Y owner in Washington state after failing to deliver on the promise of its Full Self-Driving (FSD) feature.

The case was brought by veteran arbitration lawyer Marc Dobin, who purchased a 2021 Model Y for his wife in hopes that FSD would provide her with greater independence as her mobility declined, paid an additional $10,000 for the FSD option. But despite the purchase, Tesla withheld access to FSD, requiring owners to achieve a high “Safety Score” based on undisclosed criteria. Dobin said this requirement was not disclosed at the time of purchase and became a central issue in his case."

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[pamalabama]

When he purchased his 2021 model Y these are the features he paid for. He sued on a technicality that the early days of FSD were not very good and tesla required a 99 or 100 safety score to get access to FSD.

If you sue tesla through small claims like most people do, you almost 100% lose

If you have enhanced autopilot (which this guy had without FSD) the only thing he didn't have access to was #6




Full Self-Driving Capability
$10,000

1. Navigate on Autopilot
2. Auto Lane Change
3. Autopark
4. Summon
5. Full Self-Driving Computer
6. Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

Coming later this year

1. Autosteer on city streets

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.

 

[COdogman]

Tesla's defense in most of these FSD cases *should* be an embarrassment to the fans, but of course it isn't because we live on the worst timeline.

Elon Musk celebrates winning lawsuit over Tesla self-driving claims with embarrassing defense

Elon Musk is celebrating winning a lawsuit over his misleading claims regarding Tesla’s self-driving program.

However, before celebrating, he should take a closer look at the defense his lawyers took: puffery.



By definition, “puffery” refers to exaggerated or false praise. It’s also a legal defense used by defendants in cases of false advertising or misleading statements.

The defendants argue that the statements can’t be taken seriously because they were “mere puff.”

https://electrek.co/2024/10/02/elon...sla-self-driving-claims-embarrassing-defense/

 

[pamalabama]

Tesla's defense in most of these FSD cases *should* be an embarrassment to the fans, but of course it isn't because we live on the worst timeline.

Elon Musk celebrates winning lawsuit over Tesla self-driving claims with embarrassing defense


https://electrek.co/2024/10/02/elon...sla-self-driving-claims-embarrassing-defense/

That's not the defense they are using in court.

They are using the defense that they provided all the features listed in the product page. (which is true) and in fact FSD performs better than they sold.


If you do not bring your car into a service center then the product performs as advertised and is not defective.

Rivian sold gen 1 on abilities that the car does not have.

The guy sued tesla on a new angle that there was no mention of a safety score to get FSD access and he had one line item that was not delivered. FSD did not release into the public's hands until the end of 2022/beginning of 2023

Back in the early days of FSD you had to have a safety score of 100 to get access. Safety score of 100 was nearly impossible because some circumstance out of your control could cause hard braking and you'd get below 100.

What early influencers did is they would get 100 while driving the bare minimum number of miles required. Then they'd not drive the car for the entire month to keep a score of 100

The "puffery" angle is something entirely different where tesla only made statements in public which people inferred more than they should have from them

 

[COdogman]

That's not the defense they are using in court.

They are using the defense that they provided all the features listed in the product page. (which is true) and in fact FSD performs better than they sold.

I didn't say they used it in this case, did I? But they have used that defense, right?

Also, there is no evidence to support the idea it "performs better than they sold" because it's still named "Full Self Driving"

 

[pamalabama]

I didn't say they used it in this case, did I? But they have used that defense, right?

Also, there is no evidence to support the idea it "performs better than they sold" because it's still named "Full Self Driving"

The description of the product makes mention of the abilities the car would have. It does more than they ever promised

The "puffery" defense is something different where they made claims in public and the general population inferred more than they should have from those.

Rivian has made plenty of claims too that never came true. They even sold Gen 1 vehicles as having ADAS abilities that they do not have. It's no different

Rivian is promising eyes-off capability and it looks like R2 will have lidar

 

[COdogman]

The description of the product makes mention of the abilities the car would have. It does more than they ever promised

I am not surprised in the least that you keep ignoring the NAME of the product in question when making your ridiculous comments. Or the fact that it STILL cannot do some of the things LEON promised 10 years ago

 

[pamalabama]

I am not surprised in the least that you keep ignoring the NAME of the product in question when making your ridiculous comments. Or the fact that it STILL cannot do some of the things LEON promised 10 years ago

Because name of a product is just that. You can name a product anything you want.

people think the name "autopilot" is misleading because they have a shockingly ignorant understanding of what autopilot systems do.

It's also as time goes on, our standard of what full self driving is changes. How many people use supercruise every single day and talk about how the car drives itself? Lots.

Tesla was first to doing something no one had done before. Giving consumer cars driving abilities on city streets.

 

[COdogman]

Because name of a product is just that. You can name a product anything you want.

people think the name "autopilot" is misleading because they have a shockingly ignorant understanding of what autopilot systems do.

It's also as time goes on, our standard of what full self driving is changes. How many people use supercruise every single day and talk about how the car drives itself? Lots.

Tesla was first to doing something no one had done before. Giving consumer cars driving abilities on city streets.

 

[mkhuffman]

Promises, smomishes.

Don't pay for things that might one day be available. Pay for what you receive today.

Most companies, including Rivian and Tesla, are pretty careful about the wording on purchase contracts. Marketing is a different story, but read the purchase contract before you pay.

If the purchase contract includes a promise of something that has not been provided yet, you are fairly well protected. However, a promise of something that has never existed anywhere else in the world is a pretty risky bet, IMO. Sure, you can sue. Why not just pay for what you actually know can be provided?

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Tesla's defense in most of these FSD cases *should* be an embarrassment to the fans, but of course it isn't because we live on the worst timeline.

Elon Musk celebrates winning lawsuit over Tesla self-driving claims with embarrassing defense


https://electrek.co/2024/10/02/elon...sla-self-driving-claims-embarrassing-defense/

I love this defense, it’s basically “everyone should know I’m full of shit and not take anything I say seriously”

 

[COdogman]

I love this defense, it’s basically “everyone should know I’m full of shit and not take anything I say seriously”

If I were Leon's attorney it would be the only defense I used in every case so I could sleep at night...

 

[bigsky]

The way I see it, I could not give a flying you-know-what if FSD still does not put my Teslas to "work for me as robotaxis while I sleep." It was never in my cards.

Neither do I care one bit about who said what and when about FSD. I understood what it is or could be from the get-go, and I am glad to have purchased it. Will do it again for my next Teslas also.

There always will be the Tesla haters that because FSD is still not level 100 as promised, it is therefore completely worthless. Then, there are the others who own Teslas, use FSD, understand the shortcomings and limitations, and appreciate it for what it does do. Even if still supervised, FSD does an incredible lot of great things. It is one of the greatest EV engineering feats in America, if not the best ADAS hands down. It ain't even close for all the other lesser systems out there.

I hold no expectations of FSD ever being fully autonomous, unsupervised. Or anybody else out there today for that matter. I am also glad that my Teslas with FSD are not full or herpes, cists, bumps, tumors, or look like silly sci-fi cars or science projects, and they are not corral-limited to only certain areas for FSD to work, either. As it is, using FSD today I have a hard time figuring out what to do with my hands anymore. Always ready to take over at any time, sure, but the amount of effort needed to stay watchful beats by miles the act and stress of doing the actual driving manually. And for hours on end.

 

[Zoidz]

The way I see it, I could not give a flying you-know-what if FSD still does not put my Teslas to "work for me as robotaxis while I sleep." It was never in my cards.

Neither do I care one bit about who said what and when about FSD. I understood what it is or could be from the get-go, and I am glad to have purchased it. Will do it again for my next Teslas also.

There always will be the Tesla haters that because FSD is still not level 100 as promised, it is therefore completely worthless. Then, there are the others who own Teslas, use FSD, understand the shortcomings and limitations, and appreciate it for what it does do. Even if still supervised, FSD does an incredible lot of great things. It is one of the greatest EV engineering feats in America, if not the best ADAS hands down. It ain't even close for all the other lesser systems out there.

I hold no expectations of FSD ever being fully autonomous, unsupervised. Or anybody else out there today for that matter. I am also glad that my Teslas with FSD are not full or herpes, cists, bumps, tumors, or look like silly sci-fi cars or science projects, and they are not corral-limited to only certain areas for FSD to work, either. As it is, using FSD today I have a hard time figuring out what to do with my hands anymore. Always ready to take over at any time, sure, but the amount of effort needed to stay watchful beats by miles the act and stress of doing the actual driving manually. And for hours on end.

As I have said before. I don't hate Tesla. It's an amazing company. I have a significant investment in the company via my 401k fund choices. With that soid, it's still OK to dislike their less than ethical/lack of transparency/megalomaniac business practices and I will continue post media articles about that for discussion.

The world has forgotten that It's healthy to question/dislike certain things about a company or person and respect other things they do. This world has gotten to the point that if you disagree or criticize a Company, their senior management, or a politician, you are labeled as a HATER by the loyalists. That's just stupid and speaks more about the loyalists inability to consider others' viewpoint. They can learn from a Prince quote who said "I like constructive criticism from smart people".

 

[bigsky]

As I have said before. I don't hate Tesla. It's an amazing company. I have a significant investment in the company via my 401k fund choices. With that soid, it's still OK to dislike their less than ethical/lack of transparency/megalomaniac business practices and I will continue post media articles about that for discussion.

The world has forgotten that It's healthy to question/dislike certain things about a company or person and respect other things they do. This world has gotten to the point that if you disagree or criticize a Company, their senior management, or a politician, you are labeled as a HATER by the loyalists. That's just stupid and speaks more about the loyalists inability to consider others' viewpoint. They can learn from a Prince quote who said "I like constructive criticism from smart people".

Oh, but there are Tesla haters and virtue-signalers aplenty lately. Sure, forums like this one are for posting disagreements. I did just that. And sure, not all individuals who post disagreements against Tesla are Tesla haters. At the same time, evidence points to a flood of the latter also.

And one need not be a Tesla fanboy, either, to call and describe, and appreciate what FSD is.
Signed,

Exhibit A

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