20" Inch Best 20" Tire for Max Efficiency (R1S): On-Road with Occasional Snow Driving

[jeffguitardavis]

I know these questions have been asked before and there are some great compilation threads like this:

ksurfier: https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...-wheels-and-33-tires-options-275-60r20.24561/

but I am having a hard time distilling the wealth of info down to the key points to help me make a "next tire" decision.

Vehicle: R1S LE - Gen 1 (June 2023 delivery, ~20,000 miles)
Wheels: 20" "Brights"
Stock Tires: Pirelli Scorpion ATs

Driving: mostly S.F. Bay Area city driving with occasional trips to SoCal (I-5) and also to Tahoe (I-80) so snow driving still is a need but not super frequent. The efficiency has never been all that great with those tires (as we all know) so I am in the market for new tires that prioritize a good bump up in efficiency but don't suck on snow performance (on-road) when I need it. Also, no real "off-road" use other than the occasional dirt/gravel road. Certainly no "rock crawling" or anything like that.

I do have the compact spare as well so I guess I would like to stay with the stock size of 275/65/R20? (unless the compact spare is compatible with a variety of sizes).

What has been confusing going through so many of these threads on various sites is that one thread will state "Tire A" offers a big bump in efficiency as compare to "Tire B" but another will say that Tire A offers no improvement (e.g. Michelin Defender LTX MS/2 data seems to be all over the map).


So, the top tires seem to be the following:

Goodyear Wrangler Territory AT (Rivian OEM)
General Grabber HTS 60
Pirelli Scorpion AS +3
Michelin Defender LTX MS/2

I have not been able to find reasonably definitive data that would show that any of these tires would actually give a decent efficiency bump as compared to my stock 20" Pirelli Scorpion ATs without compromising snow performance.

I would have thought the Goodyear Wrangler Territory AT would be the no-brainer choice (being the new Rivian OEM) but I have seen threads claiming that the Goodyear actually is a drop in efficiency so I still haven't found a "definitive" dataset.


Any help on this would be appreciated.

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[usulio]

The compact spare is compatible with all sizes of tires (the compact itself is only 30").

All the tires you listed would be a decent efficiency bump compared to Pirelli ATs, including the Rivian Wrangler. The Wrangler should probably have the worst efficiency of this group, since they are in-between AT and all-season, but still significantly better than Pirelli ATs.

Can't speak to snow performance of these tires, following thread. But note that fresh snow performance (ATs do well) is not the same as icy conditions performance (ATs do badly, as do almost all non-winter tires).

 

[mikehmb]

The Michelin MS2 are the best AS I've ever driven. Efficient, quiet, and genuinely great on snow.

The Wrangler Territory seem to be a great option, and are 3PMSF rated. IMO I'd go with those if I had a single set of tires.

 

[roketdog]

I’ve been looking at the Hankook ION HT as a replacement to the AT tires. Haven’t seen reviews yet, especially for a 20 wheel and not 22. It’s not 3 peak but looks to hit every other need for someone not doing heavy trails.

 

[jeffguitardavis]

The Michelin MS2 are the best AS I've ever driven. Efficient, quiet, and genuinely great on snow.

The Wrangler Territory seem to be a great option, and are 3PMSF rated. IMO I'd go with those if I had a single set of tires.

Thanks for the response. Appreciate it.

Speaking about the Michelins, this is a good thread on Reddit that still is informative but does contain comments about no boost in efficiency. I took that to mean no efficiency boost when going from stock Pirelli 21s to Michelin 21s. There is the "speculation" comment that going from stock Pirelli 20s to Michelin 20s will see a big boost in efficiency but I have yet to find that specific data.



And I get that the comparison is fundamentally dependent on the base tire in the comparison but trying to extrapolate from a comment about "21s" to a conclusion about "20s" is problematic. Thus my original post.

 

[jeffguitardavis]

The compact spare is compatible with all sizes of tires (the compact itself is only 30").

All the tires you listed would be a decent efficiency bump compared to Pirelli ATs, including the Rivian Wrangler. The Wrangler should probably have the worst efficiency of this group, since they are in-between AT and all-season, but still significantly better than Pirelli ATs.

Can't speak to snow performance of these tires, following thread. But note that fresh snow performance (ATs do well) is not the same as icy conditions performance (ATs do badly, as do almost all non-winter tires).

Is the reason the Wrangler would have the worst efficiency of the group is that the Wrangler is not a "pure" AS tire and has some AT characteristics?

Thanks for the info (especially on the compact spare)!

 

[jeffguitardavis]

I’ve been looking at the Hankook ION HT as a replacement to the AT tires. Haven’t seen reviews yet, especially for a 20 wheel and not 22. It’s not 3 peak but looks to hit every other need for someone not doing heavy trails.

I have looked at that as well but just can't find the data on the "20s" so I am a bit wary of extrapolating from comparisons regarding non-20s.

Thanks!

 

[Zorg]

Our gen2 R1S dual max came with Goodyear Wrangler. We average 2.23 mpk so far. Most of the miles are between Tahoe and bay area.

 

[mikehmb]

Thanks for the response. Appreciate it.

Speaking about the Michelins, this is a good thread on Reddit that still is informative but does contain comments about no boost in efficiency. I took that to mean no efficiency boost when going from stock Pirelli 21s to Michelin 21s. There is the "speculation" comment that going from stock Pirelli 20s to Michelin 20s will see a big boost in efficiency but I have yet to find that specific data.



And I get that the comparison is fundamentally dependent on the base tire in the comparison but trying to extrapolate from a comment about "21s" to a conclusion about "20s" is problematic. Thus my original post.

My experience was "same efficiency as 21s" (and I had both 21s and 20s at different times, then ran 20" All-Seasons in the same diameter as the OE 21s).

 

[iansriv]

I know these questions have been asked before and there are some great compilation threads like this:

ksurfier: https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...-wheels-and-33-tires-options-275-60r20.24561/

but I am having a hard time distilling the wealth of info down to the key points to help me make a "next tire" decision.

Vehicle: R1S LE - Gen 1 (June 2023 delivery, ~20,000 miles)
Wheels: 20" "Brights"
Stock Tires: Pirelli Scorpion ATs

Driving: mostly S.F. Bay Area city driving with occasional trips to SoCal (I-5) and also to Tahoe (I-80) so snow driving still is a need but not super frequent. The efficiency has never been all that great with those tires (as we all know) so I am in the market for new tires that prioritize a good bump up in efficiency but don't suck on snow performance (on-road) when I need it. Also, no real "off-road" use other than the occasional dirt/gravel road. Certainly no "rock crawling" or anything like that.

I do have the compact spare as well so I guess I would like to stay with the stock size of 275/65/R20? (unless the compact spare is compatible with a variety of sizes).

What has been confusing going through so many of these threads on various sites is that one thread will state "Tire A" offers a big bump in efficiency as compare to "Tire B" but another will say that Tire A offers no improvement (e.g. Michelin Defender LTX MS/2 data seems to be all over the map).


So, the top tires seem to be the following:

Goodyear Wrangler Territory AT (Rivian OEM)
General Grabber HTS 60
Pirelli Scorpion AS +3
Michelin Defender LTX MS/2

I have not been able to find reasonably definitive data that would show that any of these tires would actually give a decent efficiency bump as compared to my stock 20" Pirelli Scorpion ATs without compromising snow performance.

I would have thought the Goodyear Wrangler Territory AT would be the no-brainer choice (being the new Rivian OEM) but I have seen threads claiming that the Goodyear actually is a drop in efficiency so I still haven't found a "definitive" dataset.


Any help on this would be appreciated.

Very similar situation as you. 2023 G1 R1S with 20s. Just hit ~20k miles and had 2 tyres that were good and 2 that were gone (dont ask how). I got the GY Wranglers. Absolutely fantastic! They are in every way better than the Pirellis.

 

[usulio]

Is the reason the Wrangler would have the worst efficiency of the group is that the Wrangler is not a "pure" AS tire and has some AT characteristics?

Thanks for the info (especially on the compact spare)!

Yes, but I guess the difference is very small. The Rivian configurator lists Dual Standard with Goodyears at 258 miles of EPA range and Dual Standard with 22" Pirellis at 270 miles. A difference, but very small difference.

Versus, on the Dual Large, the 20" Pirelli ATs have 289 EPA miles, the 22" Pirellis are listed at 329 miles, huge difference.

 

[usulio]

My experience was "same efficiency as 21s" (and I had both 21s and 20s at different times, then ran 20" All-Seasons in the same diameter as the OE 21s).

Yeah, I remember a lot of people reporting the same a few years ago, they switched from the original 21s to 20" with non-OEM all-seasons and had the same range. The OP's suspicion is fair but a lot of anecdotes seemed to confirm this.

 

[ksurfier]

Thanks for the response. Appreciate it.

Speaking about the Michelins, this is a good thread on Reddit that still is informative but does contain comments about no boost in efficiency. I took that to mean no efficiency boost when going from stock Pirelli 21s to Michelin 21s. There is the "speculation" comment that going from stock Pirelli 20s to Michelin 20s will see a big boost in efficiency but I have yet to find that specific data.



And I get that the comparison is fundamentally dependent on the base tire in the comparison but trying to extrapolate from a comment about "21s" to a conclusion about "20s" is problematic. Thus my original post.

HTS60 (34#) is most efficient, may be others that are very close. LL75 reported they are 2-3% more efficient than the 21 OEM.
“I'm currently running the HTS60 grabber in substitute for my 21". Efficiency is almost the same or a little bit better than the 21". No recalibration needed.”

 

[B Digs]

Hi all, I’m an engineer at Goodyear that helped develop the Goodyear Wrangler Territory AT for Rivian. This tire performs well in a wide variety of conditions, including snow (3PMSF rated). Efficiency was a top design priority. Updating the software from the OE 34” AT to the Goodyear 33” tire improved range from 369 to 385 miles on my R1T. @DayTripping and others have documented impressive efficiency numbers with the Goodyear tire in this thread…
*edit - corrected link:
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...y-at-275-60-20-factory-at-tires-saving.37522/

 

[2kwik4u]

So, the top tires seem to be the following:

Goodyear Wrangler Territory AT (Rivian OEM)
General Grabber HTS 60
Pirelli Scorpion AS +3
Michelin Defender LTX MS/2

I have not been able to find reasonably definitive data that would show that any of these tires would actually give a decent efficiency bump as compared to my stock 20" Pirelli Scorpion ATs without compromising snow performance.

I would have thought the Goodyear Wrangler Territory AT would be the no-brainer choice (being the new Rivian OEM) but I have seen threads claiming that the Goodyear actually is a drop in efficiency so I still haven't found a "definitive" dataset.

Any help on this would be appreciated.

I got a slight bump when I moved from the OEM Pirelli AT's to the OEM Goodyear AT's. Not much, but it certainly wasn't any worse than before. OEM Pirellis are better in the snow IMO. they're also 1.1in taller than the goodyears, if that's important to you. The Goodyears are much quieter on dry pavement, but otherwise they're a very similar ride/drive compared to the Pirellis.

I would buy them again based on noise alone.

@R1Thor Really likes his Nokians and has good data on efficiency if I remember right. Don't see those on your list.

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