A good time to own an EV - Gas Prices about to go nuts [LOCKED DUE TO POLITICS]

[Rade]

I'm loving our $0.05 cent electric rates right about now.

I am envious!! The best we have gotten is $0.27kW! But it's still cheaper than most (non-subscription) DCFC's and coming out to $0.89 MPG/e, I'll take it!

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[BigSkies]

I haven't made the switch yet to electric heat. My bro has and likes it. Hopefully I'll get there one day. Happy i m mostly independent ish.

HVAC is the hardest one for sure. I'm glad I did it, but it was a pain. HVAC contractors can be particularly painful to deal with.

Heat-pump water heaters are a much more manageable project, and also have a better ROI if you're looking for a smaller scale project. Just don't be paying $5k for the install like some companies charge.

 

[Rade]

HVAC is the hardest one for sure. I'm glad I did it, but it was a pain. HVAC contractors can be particularly painful to deal with.

Ditto! Our oil burning hot water tank gave out just as we went into full-throttle renovations to the house. I replaced it with a heat-pump HW tank. Noticed no increase in electrical consumption. Then I looked at our 17 year old oil burning, forced air furnace. They replaced that with a heat pump that took up 50% less space, not to mention getting rid of the oil tank in the utility basement. I was asking the tech about the unit when he was installing it. When he said "that part is the whole house de-humidifier, and THAT is your whole house AC" I just fell in love! We live in Rhode Island, the whole house de-humidifier keeps the house really comfortable on the stickiest of summer days. Winter heating is still... and issue. Electric heat is not cheap, but it's only for 3 months out of the year (about at the end of the heating season now).

The best is, since we installed the new HVAC/Heat-pump, our windows have been closed and locked. NO POLLEN in the house! No "green sheen" on the tables every Spring. No coating of dust in Autumn. It's been great!

 

[BigSkies]

Not sure why there are so many glib people here. Even if you fill up with electric and power your home with solar, the ripple effect on fuel prices raising the cost of everything else and depressing the economy is just plain bad news for everyone.

There's some REALLY good reasons to use less hydrocarbons in the world. They intersect with the most pressing issues of our generation.

First off, climate change is hitting the world hard. The climate disasters that are making homes unaffordable in parts of the country are only getting worse. We are likely to see parts of sea-level cities abandoned in our lifetimes. The freshwater used for agriculture is declining, and we're already tapping into aquifers at an unsustainable rate. Given the multi-decade timelines involved in doing something, it is already too late to prevent some of these consequences, even if they haven't happened yet.

Second, our country has been involved in endless wars/conflicts in the middle east for longer than most of us can remember. It's all tied up in oil. The only reason the US cares about the middle east is because of oil. If my memory is correct, the last president to not bomb the middle east was Gerald Ford. Think about that. Most of us weren't even alive when he was president. It's an endless conflict all centered around energy.

I went to war for my country in the middle east twice. I know and admit it has stayed with me in some not great ways.

I try to live my life in a way that makes the world a better place. The best way I can do that is by reducing my reliance on hydrocarbons.

If it takes a little pain in the pocketbook for people to make decisions to not turn Colorado into a climate resembling Arizona, then I'm all for it.

If it takes a little pain in the pocketbook so my kids aren't put into a situation where they have to decide whether that car coming towards them is a harmless family or a VBIED, then the world will be a better place. Because seeing a 5 year-olds brains turned into a puddle on the street from 50cal machine gun fire isn't something you just get over.

We can make better decisions. We can make the world a better place for the next generation. It just takes a lot of people and a lot of corporations making different decisions. We can't just rely on well-meaning upper middle class families to do all of the lifting. The math just doesn't work.

 

[beatle]

I don't think "well-meaning upper middle class" means what you think it means in this thread. Being condescending to everyone who doesn't own an EV is as narrow-minded as those who completely refuse to consider owning an EV themselves. You do have a point that "the math doesn't work" for a lot of people.

But thanks for your tours anyway, seriously.

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

Not sure why there are so many glib people here. Even if you fill up with electric and power your home with solar, the ripple effect on fuel prices raising the cost of everything else and depressing the economy is just plain bad news for everyone.

Right? Shows how people really feel….

I’ve driven an EV longer than most on this forum. And I’ve had a solar powered EV longer than most on this forum. I also still have ICE cars.

I can tell you that even if you pay 0.05 or 0.10 for electricity, EVs are not always cheaper to own. Especially an out of warranty R1, when a leaky damper can lead you to uncover $7k in repairs.

And if you are at 0.20 or 0.25 for electricity, the cost benefit is way less.

And….solar ain’t free. We all paid for the tech. So, if you really crunch the numbers, the difference isn’t that huge.

 

[llcsf]

Oil hit $92 a barrel today and RBOB wholesale gasoline has climbed as high as $2.76. Retails prices are usually about $1.00 over the wholesale price, though it can be higher or lower. So we're getting closer to $4.00 gas.

RBOB price: https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/@RB.1

West Texas Intermediate Crude: https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/@CL.1

ICE Brent Crude: https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/@LCO.1

Meanwhile Natural Gas was at $3.28 before dropping down to $3.16. https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/@NG.1

If you're getting your electricity from NG, you should be relatively OK.

If you're charging on solar, I'm very jealous of you right now.

you are lucky compare to what our assh0le gov, Newsum, has caused the prices of gasoline to hover around $6 a gal for high terst and close to $5 for regular…but then our electricity isn't cheap here either…just think if this jerk gets to be prez how he will be able to screw up the whole USA

 

[Feetdry]

Lucky to have most of our electricity come from hydro and 12KW of solar on the roof. 2 EVs on their chargers in the garage. We are set until our batteries wear out....

 

[BigSkies]

I don't think "well-meaning upper middle class" means what you think it means in this thread. Being condescending to everyone who doesn't own an EV is as narrow-minded as those who completely refuse to consider owning an EV themselves. You do have a point that "the math doesn't work" for a lot of people.

But thanks for your tours anyway, seriously.

It's not about some level of smugness for owning an EV or cutting hydrocarbons.

I certainly don't intend for my comments to come across that way, although I know they sometimes get interpreted that way. It's a challenge of communicating across the internet.

I know that not everyone can have an EV. That's okay. I know not everyone can reduce natural gas usage. That's okay. Everyone's agency and lifestyles are different.

However, I also know that everyone can do something. No one has an agency of zero.

I mostly just hope to see people making decisions that make the world of tomorrow better than the world of today. Even if their motivations are different than mine.

It's also too easy to be focused on individual behavior. The vast majority of decision making needed to change the trajectory of hydrocarbons is corporate behavior, not individual behavior. Corporate america doesn't even have hydrocarbon usage on their radar until the day it impacts quarterly earnings. Price signals or regulation are the only things that will make a difference absent implausible changes to corporate ethics.

 

[beatle]

It's not about some level of smugness for owning an EV or cutting hydrocarbons.

I certainly don't intend for my comments to come across that way, although I know they sometimes get interpreted that way. It's a challenge of communicating across the internet.

I know that not everyone can have an EV. That's okay. I know not everyone can reduce natural gas usage. That's okay. Everyone's agency and lifestyles are different.

However, I also know that everyone can do something. No one has an agency of zero.

I mostly just hope to see people making decisions that make the world of tomorrow better than the world of today. Even if their motivations are different than mine.

It's also too easy to be focused on individual behavior. The vast majority of decision making needed to change the trajectory of hydrocarbons is corporate behavior, not individual behavior. Corporate america doesn't even have hydrocarbon usage on their radar until the day it impacts quarterly earnings. Price signals or regulation are the only things that will make a difference absent implausible changes to corporate ethics.

You really went another direction in responding to my comments directed at those taking joy in the situation from their electric perches. You say "no one has an agency of zero" and then turn around and say "it's too easy to be focused on individual behavior." That sounds like a cop-out for individuals actively undermining the causes they profess to support by repelling people who have yet to buy an EV. Think globally, act locally, and all that.

 

[River Ghost]

42% of climate change is due to our individual decisions about how we heat our homes, heat our water, dry our clothes, cook our food and fuel our transportation. We cannot stop drilling for oil and gas as long as we continue to use fossil fuels ourselves.

It took me 25 years to get to net zero (as of last fall) including powering my cars which are all EVs. I did it by trying to take one small step every year until the end when the gas boiler went out and I had to take the big final step. I went a whole heating season without heat partly due to covid among workers and it took three years before getting all of the issues in the heating system resolved. But I was not willing to install another gas boiler and someone had to take the plunge. Over three years ago I had the fossil gas disconnected. It is a process and there are parts that are not easy. But in the end the utility bills are a lot less and the cost of transportation is a lot less. In addition all these changes result in huge improvements in comfort, health and performance.

Everyone is in a different situation and ability to make changes so there should not be any judgement. But those of us that can make changes should do so for reasons that others have mentioned and it will bring the costs down so that others can then take the next step. The cutting edge can be painful at times but it takes some people that are willing to lead. I celebrate every person that takes a step no matter how small and realize that I still have ways that I can continue to improve my efforts.

 

[ukyank]

I don't want to wildly speculate or get too political, but just saw this while doomscrolling. Does anyone think this sort of thing - if it happens - could negatively affect our friends over at Lucid?

Tbh, I really just hate to see any EV company fail or suffer in this economy - when we should be buying more of them, not fewer.

That’s just a ragebait site, I wouldn’t give it much attention

 

[BigSkies]

You really went another direction in responding to my comments directed at those taking joy in the situation from their electric perches. You say "no one has an agency of zero" and then turn around and say "it's too easy to be focused on individual behavior." That sounds like a cop-out for individuals actively undermining the causes they profess to support by repelling people who have yet to buy an EV. Think globally, act locally, and all that.

To put it another way, everyone has a moral obligation to do what it is in their power to do.

However, individual contributions are insufficient to solve the problem. So we need something in addition to individual contributions. Particularly when individual contributions are only coming from a narrow slice of the population.

This isn't an either/or situation for individual vs collective action. Both are needed.

Corporations also have a legal fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder returns. Their CEO's and boards would be sued and fired for prioritizing anything outside of pure financial returns. That's how the legal system in the US works. Most of the decision making that is needed for a change in trajectory happens in corporate board rooms. The menu of options to get corporations to change course is pretty small. It's either price signals or the types of regulations corporate America hates. I'd love for there to be alternatives, but I don't see any.

 

[VandalSibs]

Corporations also have a legal fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder returns. Their CEO's and boards would be sued and fired for prioritizing anything outside of pure financial returns. That's how the legal system in the US works. Most of the decision making that is needed for a change in trajectory happens in corporate board rooms. The menu of options to get corporations to change course is pretty small. It's either price signals or the types of regulations corporate America hates. I'd love for there to be alternatives, but I don't see any.

Please name the law that requires a company to do what you state.

(I'll do it for you - there isn't one).

Here's a nice article about it.

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