"I would never want to be stuck waiting for an EV to charge"

[Bullwinkle]

First of all, Costco gas lines are always long. "Normal" gas typically never has a wait. Maybe 5 minutes tops.

Second, it is extremely difficult to change people's mindsets, and impossible if you're just an EV hater. You know the types who just comments on EV posts just to rile people up? Who knows if they're trolling for fun, unwilling to debate/learn, or actually ignorant.

As a motorsports enthusiast, I can say I had the same mindset BEFORE I got into my first EV (2022 Tesla Model S Long Range). I had range anxiety like crazy. 4 years later, it is still in my head, but it bothers me less. I quickly realized some key things:

• How often am I driving longer than a single full or nearly full charge (200-250 miles or more)? Once a month maybe.
• How often am I driving 500+ miles on a trip? Once a year maybe?
• Wow, I never have to go to a gas station. I wake up with a "full" charge every morning. It is no extra work for me. I effectively never go to a gas station unless I'm taking another vehicle which is my fun car (I don't care about filling up then) or my motorcycle which gets nearly 75mpg and has a 1.5 gallon tank. I park and take 2 seconds to plug in. I also have solar in my home which is an extra perk since SoCal electricity rates are ridiculous.
• Tesla chargers are open, so with optimized charging scheduled, I only have to stop for 15-25 minutes.
• Tesla chargers are EVERYWHERE. You plug in and go.
• I have a 5 year old son. I have to stop anyway.
• We can watch YouTube/Netflix/etc in an air conditioned car.
• An EV is the best no nonsense daily driver. You get in it and go.

But like I said, you don't realize a lot of these things until AFTER you own one.

You're going to have a hard time convincing someone otherwise. Maybe a few will listen and say "hm, I didn't know that", but are they really convinced 100%? Probably not. I wasn't until I owned one.

My wife has a PHEV jeep, and 90% of her driving is on electrons. I have an R1S. We need to put gas in the Jeep once every couple of months. I actually dread going to the gas station now. Dirty, stinky, and expensive.

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[Bullwinkle]

I had a couple friends that bought a first generation Leaf and had all kinds of trouble with it in the Minnesota winter. Since then, EVs have been roundly dismissed as unreliable and having too short a range for cold conditions. My other friend is a big fan of 'Hoovie's Garage', and the episode where he failed to tow an antique car really cemented his idea that EVs have short range and will leave you stranded. It's going to take a lot for America to broadly adopt EVs, because there is a ton of popular culture that dismisses them as toys that require hours to charge.

And you have to replace the batteries every two years for $40k!

 

[antimatter]

And you have to replace the batteries every two years for $40k!

When I mentioned I was planning to buy and R1T, one of my relatives (early Leaf owerner) gave me a speech about expecting to lose 15%-20% battery capacity right off the bat, and to be prepared for really long charging times, if I could find a charger.

I don't think any of my friends has a political beef against EVs, rather there is so much anti-ev rhetoric in popular culture that it will take a lot to change people's minds. And don't get me started on hydrogen...

 

[slillie]

The problem with EVs is the planning you have to do before you set off on your journey. Even if there is a charger everywhere you park, you still have to mess around with a bunch of apps and settings to charge it.

That is why my wife rarely ever drives the Rivian she has no desire to check how far each trip is and how much charge is in the truck even for short around town errands.

It's going to take a long while before the masses convert.

I still prefer my ice car and ice motorcycle for spirited driving. There is room for both. There is something to be said about lighter weight and the flick ability that comes with it and the engine noises and shifting gears do make it more engaging to drive.

Actually, if I am leaving for a long trip, I charge to 100% in the garage the night before. When I leave in the morning I've got 5+ hours to figure out my charging plan while on the road. My R1 does a great job planning my charge stops. No apps required.

 

[SwampNut]

On the topic of changing minds... In my five years of EV ownership, I've seen six friends come over. Their views varied from just "I don't understand it" to literally "fuck EVs, never!" The first one to buy an EV was in between those extremes, and honestly just shocked me with the news one day. He never felt like he was getting info for a decision, he just asked questions and was part of a group that talks cars/motorcycles/etc. One day he just says, "My Tesla is being delivered next week." WTF

The "fuck EVs" guy just came out of the closet about a month or two ago. He's in love. He's actually now a real fanboy, and evangelist. He's also laughing his ass off as the gas prices in his area are in the $7/gallon area suddenly (UK).

My neighbor bought an R1T a short time after me. He was not exactly anti-EV but had no idea what to expect, and a lot of fear from misinformation. Now he's a massive evangelist and would never buy ICE again.

 

[strykerwsu]

I found my post from another forum, where I decided to actually do the math on time fueling, about a year ago...


There are many sources for data, AI helps a bit but it's all over the map. Also day to day stops are shorter than road trip stops. EVs don't have day to day stops, they leave the house full every day. They just take longer per stop on a road trip, mostly.

ICE fueling time statistics vary from 7-11 minutes on average:

• Driving time (1-3 minutes, depending on location and diversion from a planned route, but can be much longer in rural areas.
• Fueling time (2-4 minutes, depending on tank size and pump speed, typically 8-12 gallons at 2-3 gallons per minute).
• Payment (30 seconds to 1 minute, faster with credit card at pump, slower if paying inside).
• Additional activities like restroom breaks, grabbing snacks, or stretching, which often extend stops to 7-10 minutes, as drivers use fuel stops for quick breaks.

The average number of fuelings per year is 40-55, and hard to pin down. Most people refuel every 7-12 days. Why don't we just call it 40 here, for the most conservative comparison? Oddly and amusingly I found that there are good statistic for Poland, with the average there being 25 per year. Makes sense, much more public transportation.

There are 39 million refuelings per DAY, which is shocking to me. I think this includes commercial though. In any case that's a ridiculous cost to society and productivity for the country.

40 x 9 minutes =360 minutes per year, or six fucking hours!

EV charge numbers are harder to nail down because you can have a piece of shit like a Leaf that charges super slow, or a Lucid that charges 5-7 times faster. I concentrated on the cars you'd take on a road trip, so Hyundai, Tesla, Lucid, etc. Not a Bolt or Leaf with short range and slow charging, that people rarely take on trips. This gives us 12-20 minutes, which mirrors my Tesla experience. So let's call it 16.

How many road trips do you take? The average American does only 2-3 per year. I truly expected double that. This is counting all trips over 100 miles, so many of them wouldn't need to charge at all. Let's count two trips that necessitate a public charge.

This is what AI says:
Given the lack of precise data isolating 200+ mile trips, a conservative estimate based on these sources suggests the average American takes 1 to 2 road trips over 200 miles per year. This accounts for the popularity of summer road trips (often 250–500 miles) and occasional longer vacations, with many Americans taking at least one such trip annually, though frequency varies by region, income, and lifestyle.

Of course, you may have to charge multiple times and in both directions. But you also can often charge at your destination (hotels, homes). The average miles per year is 800, but with a wide swing of 400-1200, and 25% of people NEVER do it. Crazy. My average road trip is 300-800, and about four times a year, maybe more.

So again using the modern road-trip-worthy cars, we get this:
For 800 miles of road trips annually (over 200 miles per trip):

• Hyundai Ioniq 5: ~5–6 charging stops, due to its ~210-mile real-world range and ~147-mile usable range per cycle.
• Tesla Model Y: ~4–5 stops, with a ~260-mile range and ~182-mile usable range, aided by efficient Supercharger access.
• Lucid Air: ~3–4 stops, thanks to its ~350-mile range and ~245-mile usable range, the best among the three.

Let's take the high side, 6.

6 x 16 minutes =96 minutes

Every year, gasholes waste over four hours more of their lives at a gas station.

Lots of people will take issues with my numbers. I did my best to have two different AIs confirm them. But let's do this...

40 x 5 minutes =200 minutes
10 x 20 minutes =200 minutes

Pushed to times that don't make sense (no fucking way are you doing the entire fuel stop from drive to drive in five minutes), the worst case is break even. Well, not in your bank account.

My personal numbers are ludicrously above average for all of it, so I guess, worthless.

Great work. I think your #'s for refueling are a little on the low side but good factual basis. We might just have really slow pumps around here though. I live 1.5 miles from pump and takes at least 8 min to get there and back with light.

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

"Why? Your gas car can't do that in one go."

What car do they have that doesn’t get 450mi per tank?

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

This is a little cherry picked. I’ve spent many more times waiting to charge or charging than waiting for gas or filling up. I can’t even remember a time in years where I had to wait more than 3 minutes before getting to the pump and more than 6-7 minutes overall filling up.

 

[Time2Roll]

I had a trip last year where I needed to charge twice from 10% to 100%. This is a bit of an exception and the wait did consist of mostly just killing time. Still don't miss the gas stations one bit.

Just checked the route again and two new spots are open (Wells and Alamo along NV93) so just in the last few months now there is no longer a need to charge to 100%

Gets better every day.

 

[VSG]

This is a little cherry picked. I’ve spent many more times waiting to charge or charging than waiting for gas or filling up. I can’t even remember a time in years where I had to wait more than 3 minutes before getting to the pump and more than 6-7 minutes overall filling up.

And I have NEVER waited for an EV charger, so your assumption that we're all waiting in line for chargers all the time is unreasonable. On the other hand, I almost always have to wait for a gas pump. To the extent that if there is no wait at all it's a bit of a pleasant surprise - my lucky day. But that doesn't happen often.

@SwampNut posted his numbers and made some justification for them. If you disagree, then maybe post your own numbers and show how those modify his results? For example, factor in a wait time per charger, and provide a reasonable estimate for the wait time backed by something other than you own feelings about how long you personally wait. How do the numbers change then? Do your assumptions change the conclusion?

Fact is, these discussion are always "cherry picked" the other way by focusing solely on DCFC while on multi-thousand mile non-stop road trips where people are driving 14 hour straight through and can't be bothered to stop. So adding in a hour of charging is "unacceptable". This is not a typical use case, and does not paint an accurate picture of which technology takes more of my time over the course of a year.

My daughter has owned an EV for more than a year and has never visited a DCFC. She plugs in at home and is always "full". She chose a place to live reasonably close to where she works, so doen't have a long commute. She drives about 100 miles RT once a week for work, and has occassionally taken some 200 mi one way trips where she uses the charger at her friend's house or at the place she's staying. So she saves an enormous amount of time and money by never visiting gas stations anymore. If you doubled the range of her EV, it wouldn't do her one bit of good, and would make the EV way more expensive.

Reality is that Americans drive 35 miles a day on average. If that's all you do, then you spend NO time at a DCFC. And your EV will always be "full" and ready to go the next morning - even if you forgot to plug it in, you're only down 35 miles out of your 350 mile range, so who cares. Forgot to fill up your gasser before you got home (or just didn't feel like making the detour and waiting in line during rush hour)? Chances are you're now in a bind and have to stop at a gas station first thing in the morning along with everyone else trying to fill up just so they can get to work. Fun!

Point is, the pattern of refueling EVs is different. And it's a far more convenient pattern, because refueling is almost always done at home at your leisure. But people who don't drive EVs always focus on the pain points that affect them - wait times and inconvenience of fueling. Because no one ever says the best part of having an ICE vehicle is the quick and easy fueling. People try to avoid going to gas stations until it's absolutely necessary, and at that point they don't have a choice - they have to go. So if you frame the argument as having to suffer that MORE with an EV, of course that sounds bad. But that's not a pattern you have to follow with an EV.

Cherry-picking road trips as a way of comparison is just grossly distorting the comparison. But even then, my EV road trips are not affected by time spent charging, because I can charge while doing other things that would have to be done sequentially when driving an ICE vehicle.

 

[Thedude]

It’s a point that’s debated to death. EVs are great around town but not great for long distance in a hurry, not great in the cold over moderate distances, not great at towing or heavy hauling, not great in remote areas, etc. Like most everything in life there’s a decision to be made on where you compromise. For some the once or twice a year long distance towing headache outweighs the rest of the year convenience. Other people in the same situation decide that it’s worth it to take a few hours extra on the occasional towing trip.

 

[TyeeMike]

I take 2 or 3 yearly trips from Surrey BC to Nelson BC about 650KM roll. I have to find a stop to charge once and put that together with lunch, so say 40 minutes to one hour. Cost about $20
If i drive with a heavy foot (always) i may add an 2nd stop and do some grocery shopping while charging to get food in the cupboards at the cabin.

charger at home, at the cabin and at my work place. cost per KW at home/cabin $ .09 (cnd $ per KWH) and $.06 per KWH at work.) My previous trucks, Titan and Tundra were costing me about $ 120 for the trip. Overall with charging my travel time added about 1/2 - 1 hour vs ICE where lunch time is the same for either fuel source.

i do admit though that on one trip for a golf event when lunch was a to go dirty gas station sandwich and bag of chips picked up while jamming the gas cap into the pump handle to fuel i was able to make the 650 K in 6.25 hours....thankfully no speed traps. Had the Titan up on two wheels a few times....to make this happen.

Hwy 3 from Surrey to Nelson BC is a great drive in any vehicle, highly recommended in particular for those that hold the road well!

On a longer trip, making the drive part of the adventure is much more enjoyable. Stop at the small fruit stand in the OK / Similkameen valley - Canadas desert. or Osoyoos. In Greenwood - Deadwood cafe, and so many other stops along this scenic route.

Happy travels enjoy the drive. Gotta love driving past the pumps, in Surrey today gas is 2.15 / litre LOL = say $ 6 USD per gallon (3.78 litres/usg x $2.15/ $ 1.37 CND/USD = $5.93 for purists). but for an 80 litre tank fill cost would be over $ 170 CDN $125 USD vs 131 x $ .09 / kw from zero....for about the same range. ? i may not have the math right.... but think that is say $ 11.79 CND or $ 8.61
so my lunch budget gest and added $ 116 USD Fun times

 

[CharonPDX]

What car do they have that doesn’t get 450mi per tank?

Most cars?

A few year old Kia Sportage. EPA 26 MPG, 14 gallon tank = 364 miles.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

You have to stop to pee eventually.

Well... maybe not? /s https://a.co/d/05gQQbPf

 

[Chase32]

Currently, charging on long road trips is absolutely more of an inconvenience versus gas, no matter how you try to spin it. That’s just a fact.

With that said, I love my Rivian.

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