Cybertruck photo leaked! ?

[kurtlikevonnegut]

But it's bulletproof!*

Threads like this are great for outing the Tesla Stans who lurk on this forum















*Not actually bulletproof

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[NY_Rob]

This might have been true 6 years ago.

Look at the "tabless cell" design, lots of good video's on YT. It's being called "revolutionary" (and not just in the usual YT clickbate titles) for a good reason.
It seems simple enough in theory, but actually manufacturing it has been quite problematic. When you have current going in and out of the full cathode width vs a 3mm wide "tab" that makes a enormous difference in how much current you can quickly pull from or push into that cell.

Tesla Tabless cell below..

Conventional Tab cell below..

 

[zipzag]

No. Rivian is way more efficient. Could it be better? Absolutely, but it's practically not in the same class as the Hummer as far as efficiency is concerned.

Proportional to size it looks pretty close in efficiency to Rivian. Not that the size necessarily correlates strongly to utility. Unless perhaps if the buyer regularly wants to seat three adults comfortably in the second row.

The Lightning really did well with efficency. I wonder if Ford's expensive switch to aluminum construction anticipated EV or was just luck.

A Ford based SUV will eventually be a true Rivian competitor. I expect that I have many neighbors who will consider the R1T cool but would have no interest in an F150-like vehicle.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Look at the "tabless cell" design, lots of good video's on YT. It's being called "revolutionary" (and not just in the usual YT clickbate titles) for a good reason.
It seems simple enough in theory, but actually manufacturing it has been quite problematic. When you have current going in and out of the full cathode width vs a 3mm wide "tab" that makes a enormous difference in how much current you can quickly pull from or push into that cell.

Tesla Tabless cell below..

Conventional Tab cell below..

I haven't seen any published information if Tesla is still using the fuse wire to each individual cell for the new batteries. You're still pushing all that current through a "Teensy weensy conductive area" if they are.

 

[Dark-Fx]

The Lightning really did well with efficency. I wonder if Ford's expensive switch to aluminum construction anticipated EV or was just luck.

Have they published EPA numbers yet?

 

[NY_Rob]

I haven't seen any published information if Tesla is still using the fuse wire to each individual cell for the new batteries. You're still pushing all that current through a "Teensy weensy conductive area" if they are.

That fuse can be made much larger/higher value now as it's set a a low value to protect from melting the tiny tab and overheating the conventional cell. Tabless design solves both of those issues.

 

[Dark-Fx]

That fuse can be made much larger/higher value now as it's set a a low value to protect from melting the tiny tab and overheating the conventional cell. Tabless design solves both of those issues.

You're still beholden to the chemical limitations of the cell. I don't think it's as big of a gamechanger as you say it is.

 

[zipzag]

Have they published EPA numbers yet?

320 for the large pack, which I assume is always two motors.

On the subject of work trucks, one of my few Rivian disappointments is the apparent weakness of the Rivian 120V inverter when starting tools. The Lightnings ability to use the big battery to power mains equipment is looks a lot better than Rivian.

I would like to hook the Lightnings 30A/240V plug to my houses generator connection.

 

[ads75]

Rust free, super durable/dent & ding resistant skin that will never need a paint job. Also great for people using the CT near salt water (trailering boats/ramp launching) where rust is a huge problem.

Those are talking points not really selling points. Realistically, how many people do you know that have ever needed to put a new paint job on a car that wasn’t in a wreck? Rusting is more of a problem in the snow belt than salt water, and even then, only on pretty old cars. I do like the look of the stainless steel, but it really doesn’t do anything.

 

[NY_Rob]

You're still beholden to the chemical limitations of the cell. I don't think it's as big of a gamechanger as you say it is.

Which far exceed the limitations of the old "tab" cathode design. It's not myth but fact that tab connector heating is a limiting factor of current cylindrical Li-ion cells. People are always complaining/wanting faster charging or "the same time it takes to fill up my gas vehicle", well the tabless cell might be the first commercially viable Lithium chemistry cell to get very close to that. Right now the cathode tab is a huge limiting factor, Tesla got rid of that, now on to even better chemistry maybe?

 

[moosehead]

Rust free, super durable/dent & ding resistant skin that will never need a paint job.…

I would have to paint the CT camoflauge so as not to be seen.

 

[manitou202]

Which far exceed the limitations of the old "tab" cathode design. It's not myth but fact that tab connector heating is a limiting factor of current cylindrical Li-ion cells. People are always complaining/wanting faster charging or "the same time it takes to fill up my gas vehicle", well the tabless cell might be the first commercially viable Lithium chemistry cell to get very close to that. Right now the cathode tab is a huge limiting factor, Tesla got rid of that, now on to even better chemistry maybe?

So the only reason EV batteries taper today is because of the "tab" design? Nothing to do with the chemistry and pumping 250kW into the battery at 90%?

Maybe the improved "tab" design allows for high peak charging speeds, but I'm skeptical it will dramatically change the entire charging curve. It's my understanding that the taper is necessary because of battery chemistry limitations.

Regardless, I don't think we will see 5 minute EV charging any time soon. Lets take the Model S for example with a 100kWh capacity. To charge from 10% - 80% (not even completely charging the battery) would require an average charging rate of 840kW over 5 minutes (not including charging losses which would be huge). A Cybertruck with a theoretical 130kWh battery would require 1092kW over 5 minutes. No way changing the tab design will suddenly make this a reality. Not to mention no such charging infrastructure is even close.

My guess is the tab design may reduce a Model S 10% - 80% charging time from 29 minutes to 20 minutes, but honestly Porsche, Audi, and Hyundai are already close. It's probably not the game changer they claim.

https://insideevs.com/news/515641/tesla-models-plaid-charging-analysis/

 

[zipzag]

..................

My guess is the tab design may reduce a Model S 10% - 80% charging time from 29 minutes to 20 minutes, but honestly Porsche, Audi, and Hyundai are already close. It's probably not the game changer they claim.

https://insideevs.com/news/515641/tesla-models-plaid-charging-analysis/

For the target market I feel that Rivian has a somewhat unique relationship with charge rate. I want the max pack to carry power away from fast chargers. I care a lot about how long it takes to charge from 20% to 95%.

For typical EV long range travel all experienced owners know that the critical range is somewhere around 10-60%. But I wouldn't be spending the extra money on Rivian for typical highway travel.

I think extra fast charging is only a major benefit for people who can't charge at home and want the gas station experience. I think non-EV owners may thing that plugging in a Whole Foods to get 3 kwh while shopping is how EVs work, but I doubt that weak chargers everywhere is the future.

The exception in sunny climates may be that best policy is encouraging employees to plug into level 2 at work.

 

[NY_Rob]

So the only reason EV batteries taper today is because of the "tab" design? Nothing to do with the chemistry and pumping 250kW into the battery at 90%?

Agreed, it's not just the tab, but electrolyte heating as well. The tabbed cell ends (right now only one end is tabbed but that may eventually shift to both ends in upgraded design) should also provide meaningful heat dissipation benefits as well.

The new tabless cell also employees "Dry Battery Electrode" technology. "DBE results in higher energy density, higher power density, better cohesion and adhesion (electrode durability), and reduced heat generation".

The battery industry, scientists, engineers and university studies have called the tabless concept a major advance in rechargeable cell design. It is Tesla's "go to" cell for high current, high demand, fast recharge vehicles (including the Semi) for good reason. People can dismiss it because Musk came up with the design.. I get that, he's a polarizing individual and not liked by all. But, unlike GM's Ultium battery which people are for some reason frothing over (which uses standard Nickel Cobalt Manganese Aluminum (NCMA) pouch cells), the tabless Tesla cells are an actual design advance at cell level.

Anyway, I guess we'll see how they perform once they're in customer vehicles...

 

[koersontap]

You're still beholden to the chemical limitations of the cell. I don't think it's as big of a gamechanger as you say it is.

That's because it's not. It's an improvement to cell design, yes, but still constrained by thermal loading, total system voltage, and any number of other small issues.

And the Ultium system isn't being praised for the cells (which are pretty standard, and can be improved once cell technology improves). Ultium's advantage comes from it's system design and manufacturing process. Which yes, is the best on the market today.

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