Delete

[chrismc]

Which would mean the hot tub is not protected by a breaker. Which is actually the least of your worries. That red glowing connection has been deteriorating for a while which is why it is now glowing, there is too much resistance there. Maybe at some point in the past it wasn’t tightened correctly or got loose. At any rate, this needs attention RIGHT AWAY. New buss bars are needed, and connect that hot tub to a breaker!

id also check what your service is. Right now, you could draw 375 amps, which I am guessing is more than your actual service. And maybe that’s why the buss bar is burnt out, you are trying to draw too much current through it. I’ll bet it is only rated for 200A max.

Holy crap, you need to nope the f$&k out of there and get an electrician on-site today to fix that! If your house burns down, you now have knowledge and documentation of the hazard that caused it and could get an insurance denial.

In the meantime, shut off the hot tub and everything in that outdoor sub panel to get that load off that firestarter. Consider yourself lucky, you really dodged a bullet by finding this!!

Sponsored

 

[Monkey]

Holy schneikies!

 

[chrismc]

The electrician who ran the hot tub wiring response:

That 125 amp breaker is the sub panel’s main breaker, which is confusing because that is wired correctly. The 125 amp breaker is the means of disconnecting the sub panel. Everything is wired correctly, the chair lug is fried, and I don’t know why that red wire/ leg is running hot. It could be the screw. The chair lugs we used were rated.

We could bring up some parts and fix the issue today. The chair lugs shouldn’t have burned up like that. Idk if the screw is loose to the bus bar, and that’s why it's started arching and burning up. But that is the only reason I could imagine it running hot. In the photo, it’s the screw that is red, I’m sure it could be an issue with the screw not being rated for that heat, but the screw we used was the screw that came with the chair lug we installed.

That hot tub install is very unconventional at best, I would hire a different electrician to do this repair and review the work.

 

[chrismc]

I just talked to another electrician who said, "It's not code, but it's fine. That busbar connection must be fixed, but everything else is ok. Ignore the internet code trolls."

“It’s not code but it’s fine” ?? Do you know who the author of the National Electrical Code is? The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA, firefighters)

 

[chrismc]

Not saying I agree; just stating what he said. I have an electrician coming to fix it today. What should I look for to know it was done correctly???

Without having an electrical inspector review the whole works it’s tough to say, but at minimum I’d be asking these questions:
- What is the electric service rated at, and where are the overcurrent protection devices (OPD, or circuit breakers) that protect from exceeding that?
- What are the bus bars rated for, and where are the OPDs protecting that?
- What is the total load calculation for the service/main bus bars, broken down by sub-panel feed?
- What size and ampacity rating are the conductors servicing the outdoor subpanel, and are they rated to handle the combination of both the 125A subpanel breaker plus the hot tub subpanel? (They look undersized but it is tough to tell) If they are undersized, what is protecting them from being overdrawn? If nothing, why/how is that ok?

These questions are a good starting point for a conversation to better understand your setup and where you have (or don’t have) capacity to add loads, and to get a good feeling about how well the electrician actually understands the whole picture.

Another path to get a “stamp of approval” would be to ask them to pull a permit to install a circuit for an EVSE to get the inspector out there to poke around, but beware that could have a very costly ending if they require a service or meter socket /main panel upgrade (which might be needed anyway). If it were me I’d probably go that route for piece of mind and just peel off the bandaid and not worry about it again.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Things I don’t like about the setup.

We don’t know the service amperage nor the buss bar amperage, but it almost certainly isnt 375 amps. So whoever installed that should be shot. That is basic, basic, basic. You have to have breaker protection that protects the buss bar capacity.

Second, yeah I know the hot tub has a separate breaker, but you don’t go hanging two conductors off a single lug. Normally you would hang the 50 amp hot tub off a 50 amp breaker in a panel and also have a remote 50A disconnect.

Lots of other things to think about given how this was installed, but nothing else is for sure wrong. But do check everything anyways by a different electrician that built this.

 

[ebellinder2]

As Chris has stated I highly doubt that is a 400 rated electrical service. You may be able to look at your utility bill and it may state your service amperage. Also the meter face may state the rated amperage. I am guessing your service and meter are rated for between 100 and 200 amps max. After you determine this you can move forward and make sure there are no wires that leave a cabinet that do not originate at a circuit breaker. Make sure there is only one wire per compression terminal and the correct gauge of wire for the load and I would place an amp probe ( fancy ammeter ) on that burnt connection and see what is the current with the hot tub and other loads running it is pulling

If all of this checks out and we are not overloading the service and the meter then the electrician can begin making repairs and checking connection integrity

wish you were near Chicago I would love to dig into this system as it has got to be the most complicated I have ever seen.
Not to say it is not safe in general just very unique

Just some FYI. A large 400 amp system normally has current transducers (CT’s) in a cabinet that monitor current flow for the electric meter. From there you would split into possible (2) 200 amp panels. Will be interesting to see what your electrician finds

good luck

Ed

 

[Cosmacelf]

So he's coming out today to "fix it," but I'm unsure how to qualify as "fixed." I think I have a decent grasp of what's wrong but no direction on how to fix it. The biggest question is how should he power that sub panel?

Somewhere on that main panel there should be a label that indicates what the load rating is for the panel board. Maybe on the inside the cover that you took off to show us the glowing nut.

Let's say it is 200A. Now, since your panel board isn't set up with a single main breaker, and instead has spots for two breakers plus lugs that feed a third breaker in the outdoor subpanel right beside, all these breakers must add up to 200A and no more. So, you could have a 40A breaker and a 100A breaker in the main panel feeding the indoor panels and a 60A breaker in the outdoor subpanel. This is not ideal in the least and I don't know if it would work because the subpanels could overdraw those sub panel breakers. I'd have to think about it to figure out if it would work at all.

What you really want is a proper 200A main panel that has a 200A panel breaker, with a couple of 125A breakers feeding the indoor panels, and a 100A or so breaker feeding the outdoor subpanel one. Basically, you need a new main panel.

Oh, and the hot tub needs to be connected to a 50A breaker in the outdoor subpanel under any scenario (I am assuming 50A, use whatever the amp rating of the hottub's remote breaker).

 

[Dark-Fx]

Everyone calm down and stop scaring the OP. Yes, there are code violations, but that doesn't mean it is overloaded.

Eek! I'm guessing that connection on the busbar(?) isn't supposed to be glowing and black!?!?

Lol k. Guess I'll calm down then. Good luck OP. Don't burn your house down.

 

[supernu8]

As I said previously, this isn't a simple case of adding a breaker and wiring for a new EVSE circuit due to your unique setup.

I would be weary of trusting the electrician that wired up that hot tub circuit without a gfci breaker to make any more fixes. As far as you've shown there is no gfci. That "breaker" at the tub is just a disconnect switch with no protection built in. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was another subpanel that you have hidden on your property that we have yet to see, or maybe it's in the tub circuitry which would not be typical.

It would be a good idea to know where the gfci is located before using that hot tub. Also, looks like corrosion starting on the other leg above the glowing lug, I'd make sure they completely remedy the situation and not just clean up/replace the bottom one.

 

[Cosmacelf]

That "breaker" at the tub is just a disconnect switch with no protection built in.

Ah geez, I didn’t even notice that. The sticker beside that switch specifically says that it isn’t an over current protection device. Yeah, you need a GFCI breaker for that hot tub pronto. I mean, that’s an actual electrocution hazard.

 

[WSea]

Maybe a 3rd electrician? And one who gets permits

 

[Monkey]

You'll find that electricians' adherence to NEC varies by region/location. Some areas have very lax permitting and inspections, or none at all. The attitude of "it's not code, but it's fine" is common. Especially when it comes to residential upgrades where the system was probably already a code violation or compromise before they even show up. Yeah, there's a lot of internet code trolls, but mostly for good reason. I think most of us just want everyone to be safe and not jeopardize themselves/ family/ property... Building/electrical codes exist for a reason and I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest anything outlandish or point out anything that wasn't of true concern. The best advice is to always consult a qualified electrician and don't be afraid to get a second, or third opinion. I'm not an electrician, but have spent a lifetime in the construction business and have built and renovated many homes and commercial spaces. What you have showed us with your electrical setup is a bit scary. Not going to sugar-coat it.

Glad you had it looked at and immediate issues addressed. 250A main breaker seems reasonable to support all that you currently have. The hot tub will need to be reconnected properly and you still need a proper load calculation done. You have to force your loads to all be on to see where you stand, but sometimes that isn't entirely possible. Sometimes you have to test for each breaker or panel group on its own, conditions permitting for things. On a 250A main breaker, I think you can support a car charger on a 50A, maybe 60A circuit, just fine with what you currently have, but then you'll for sure be maxed out. You won't be able to run the charger from either of the sub-panels without wiring/sub-panel upgrades.

If your area has concise permitting and inspection criteria, then I would avoid any electrician that skirts around that. Sure, I get saving a few bucks, but once again the codes and inspections are there for a good reason. As much as I hate government bureaucracies and overstepping their bounds, there are times the reasoning is for the greater good.

I'm often surprised by what I can run off my 200A service at my place. I have only tripped the main breaker once and I was actually trying to do it with my electrician there figuring things out. Alas, I need to upgrade to a 320A/400A service in order to install my second charger. While I have not been able to trip my main without specifically trying, the possibility exists and there's no way I can add another 40+ AMPs on top of my current potential load... Especially since I want to add the 80A Ford charger...

A service upgrade may be something in your future. I think you'll be OK with your main service... It's the sub-panel groupings that bother me more. But such things are not always available, nor affordable. As many of the code trolls in the thread often neglect to point out is the amount of effort, work, materials, expense, etc.. it might take to bring your electrical entirely up to code. Often people like yourself are just here to inquire about adding a car charger, not to be served notice that their entire house needs to be rewired at great expense. ...In order to meet some ideal, which is great in its own right, yet may not be the requirement in your area, nor feasible by any realistic means...

 

[Cosmacelf]

So I this is what they did. They removed the wiring for the hot tub and left that disconnected. They removed the wires and the lugs from the bus bar. They advised to replace the current setup with a 250amp main breaker combo 20/40. It looks like the lug nut was arching on the stud. They tested amps from the two main 125 lines and they were drawing 14amps each but said that seemed really low and may not be accurate because of how cold it is outside. I have gas fireplaces and radiant heat floors so no electrical for climate control. I don’t know if that makes an impact on that low draw. They also stated the main line wires and the (2) 125 breakers are all 4/0.

So, main panel upgrade then? Frankly, it is the only even semi-safe and sane solution I can think of. And you’ll get your 60A EV charger out of it. And a hot tub that is properly protected.

A 250A 20/40 panel sounds like it’ll work fine. It would also eliminate that other outdoor sub panel. And you really don’t have tons of large loads, so 250A even with the extra 60A EV charger should be fine.

 

[WSea]

You'll find that electricians' adherence to NEC varies by region/location. Some areas have very lax permitting and inspections, or none at all. The attitude of "it's not code, but it's fine" is common. Especially when it comes to residential upgrades where the system was probably already a code violation or compromise before they even show up. Yeah, there's a lot of internet code trolls, but mostly for good reason. I think most of us just want everyone to be safe and not jeopardize themselves/ family/ property... Building/electrical codes exist for a reason and I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest anything outlandish or point out anything that wasn't of true concern. The best advice is to always consult a qualified electrician and don't be afraid to get a second, or third opinion. I'm not an electrician, but have spent a lifetime in the construction business and have built and renovated many homes and commercial spaces. What you have showed us with your electrical setup is a bit scary. Not going to sugar-coat it.

Glad you had it looked at and immediate issues addressed. 250A main breaker seems reasonable to support all that you currently have. The hot tub will need to be reconnected properly and you still need a proper load calculation done. You have to force your loads to all be on to see where you stand, but sometimes that isn't entirely possible. Sometimes you have to test for each breaker or panel group on its own, conditions permitting for things. On a 250A main breaker, I think you can support a car charger on a 50A, maybe 60A circuit, just fine with what you currently have, but then you'll for sure be maxed out. You won't be able to run the charger from either of the sub-panels without wiring/sub-panel upgrades.

If your area has concise permitting and inspection criteria, then I would avoid any electrician that skirts around that. Sure, I get saving a few bucks, but once again the codes and inspections are there for a good reason. As much as I hate government bureaucracies and overstepping their bounds, there are times the reasoning is for the greater good.

I'm often surprised by what I can run off my 200A service at my place. I have only tripped the main breaker once and I was actually trying to do it with my electrician there figuring things out. Alas, I need to upgrade to a 320A/400A service in order to install my second charger. While I have not been able to trip my main without specifically trying, the possibility exists and there's no way I can add another 40+ AMPs on top of my current potential load... Especially since I want to add the 80A Ford charger...

A service upgrade may be something in your future. I think you'll be OK with your main service... It's the sub-panel groupings that bother me more. But such things are not always available, nor affordable. As many of the code trolls in the thread often neglect to point out is the amount of effort, work, materials, expense, etc.. it might take to bring your electrical entirely up to code. Often people like yourself are just here to inquire about adding a car charger, not to be served notice that their entire house needs to be rewired at great expense. ...In order to meet some ideal, which is great in its own right, yet may not be the requirement in your area, nor feasible by any realistic means...

I’d highly recommend not to force everything on. Have you calculated and sized a load center? Not everything is assumed to be on at same time. If you don’t know or have to ask get a good electrician

Sponsored