EV Incentives ending on Sept 30? Any workaround?

[McLovin]

When you consider that very few people bought VW diesels to be clean they were great vehicles. I loved mine, reasonably priced, good performance, 50mpg, not much to complain about.

Oh, I won’t argue that they were extremely reliable, solid vehicles. Our two Touaregs were possibly the best towing vehicles we’ve owned. That V6 turbo diesel handled our 23ft wakeboat no problem, but still managed to get decent mileage. However…

…to the tune of polluting 40x more NOx gases (I just looked it up). It was a pretty shady (and highly illegal) thing to do, regardless of why people bought them.

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[SASSquatch]

Their “clean diesel” was a farce, and I benefited greatly because of their deceit. Two diesel Touaregs and one Audi diesel A3 essentially got me 6 years of no car payments.

Of course, I wasn’t entirely happy to learn I was polluting the air at 5 times more than advertised (<= I made that number up…forgot how bad it really was), but what could I do? I was told I was getting vehicles that (a) got great mileage (they did), (b) had improved performance (they did), and (c) were good for the environment (…not so good…).

Two out of three ain’t bad, is it?

I don't think you understood my statement. VW was punished for their emissions scandal and as part of the massive penalty agreed to spend several billion dollars creating the Electrify America charging network.

Nobody is arguing about past discretions of VW. Rivian didn't seem to have a problem partnering with them given their tainted history, either.

My point is, VW (and all of their related brands) brings extensive experience on the ICE side of the EREV equation. Rivian has refined the EV portion, including battery, software, architecture, and electric motors. Together they could produce a compelling EREV that would help sustain Rivian by providing additional cash flow.

 

[DuoRivians]

I know they are popular with a particular group here, but EREVs serve a narrow audience and aren't worth the additional cost for most buyers and the additional manufacturing and service complexity certainly isn't worth Rivian's time. To me it's a product for people who are in denial that what they want (or need) is an ICE truck (people who regularly travel long distances and don't like charging, or who tow).

Three hundred+ mile range EVs with an adequate charging network works great for 98% of new ev buyers. It's the best product

@DuoRivians The majority of Rivian's regulatory credit sales are CARB ZEV credits, which by my understanding do not go away with OBBBA (yet).

They all go away. Rivian gets no more credits. Neither does Tesla

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

Just read that the new spending bill removes EV tax credit and other clean energy incentives.
Is there any workaround for this?
The R2 is too far away.

(Glad I installed solar panels and batteries last year…)

Nope, Trump and his minions want to reverse everything Biden, the Democrats, and some Republicans did via the IRA. You know cut off your nose to spite your face. I think they even sped up the time table to September 30th to spite Elon. And now he’s alienated the left and the right, damaging the perception of electric vehicles across the entire country. The whole thing is an asinine mess.

My only hope is that there’s a massive backlash during the midterms in 2026 that makes Trump a lame duck president for two years, so he and his sycophants can’t do any more damage. Followed by a routing of the so-called Republican Party in 2028.

After that I’d reinstate the IRA as quickly as possible instead of pissing around, like the Democrats always do. Stop wasting time attempting to compromise with people that would no sooner rob you blind and burn your house down as help you protect the planet, invest in new technologies, and bring manufacturing back to the US.

At this rate we will fall further and further behind China and Europe in regard to sustainable energy and transportation. We’ll be the only first-world country that isn’t actively doing something about climate change. All so a bunch of rich assholes can get richer and have more power that they don’t need or deserve.

It’s sickening and I’m saddened that we’ll be left behind for a time, but the electrification of transportation and the promotion and adoption of sustainable energy is inevitable. You can’t stop progress no matter how deep your pockets are.

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

Not sure why you question the R2 launch. They are well on track for the R2, and appear well positioned to capture a significant market with it. It sounds like you are not a fan of the company at all. If you don't like their vehicles, their tech, their features, and how the company is being run - why are you here on this forum? Seems odd. Do you regret your R1T?

Where do you think their workforce should be? What are you considering 'nonessential' employees?

What do you see as a better alternative EV with better range and tech features? Honestly, with the possible exception of the new Scout, there is nothing else out there I would consider

I don't believe that the death of the incentives will hurt Rivian all that much. I am just personally hoping there is still some way to get that credit. I will still buy an R2. I would buy one today if I could. The price on the R2 is a sweet spot - assuming they can keep it close to that starting point.

I think the R2 will launch, but with tariffs, potential increases in inflation, and the lack of the $7,500 tax credit it’s going to appeal to a much smaller percentage of the population than originally planned.

The $45K model was supposed to have 270 miles of range, while a mid-tier model starting in the 50s would get 300+ miles of range. That’s not bad for a crossover SUV that retains the quality of its more expensive siblings, but if the tax credit had been preserved you would have been looking at a $37,500 Rivian. That’s half the price of their current cheapest offering ($75K R1T).

That would have been massive and caused Rivian to grow exponentially. Now they will grow more slowly, but that might not be a bad thing given that they probably would have struggled to meet demand due to production constraints.

Hopefully they manage to survive over the next few years as VW implements their zonal architecture and UI. I’m waiting for that R3(X) in 2028-2030. I probably could have afforded an R2, but not anymore.

 

[McLovin]

I don't think you understood my statement.

Oh, I understood your statement, but I don't think you understood my little quip that started this whole back & forth: you stated that VW "pretty much has the ICE side locked down", to which I replied "so long as it's not 'clean diesel'".

I was being somewhat facetious, because clearly they didn't have that locked down, or they wouldn't have faked great emissions by programming the computer to run in "limp mode" when it detected measurements were being taken.

 

[White Shadow]

The few times you take a long trip, charging infrastructure is actually quite good now and you can easily plan charging stops. If you take the time you usually use to gas up a daily driver, the time saved while it charges overnight while you sleep more than makes up any time you charge on road trips. It’s not even close.

This is so false that it's not even funny. Not sure what you consider a long trip, but I recently drove from Florida to New York for a family function in my ICE Audi while my brother did the same drive in his Model 3 Long Range. We left within a few minutes of each other. I got back to NY ahead of him by more than 3 hours and I wasn't even trying to make good time. We even stopped for dinner at a restaurant, while they ate fast food at charging stops. Sorry, but the reality here is that it only takes a few minutes to fill a gas tank and you have to do it far less often than you have to stop to charge an EV. With my particular Audi, 500 miles on a tank of fuel is fairly easy to achieve, but we still stopped four times (once for dinner) and still got home much, much sooner.

 

[White Shadow]

I'm with you. Large battery EVs absolutely need 800V charging. Rivians charge far too slowly.

I really expected this to happen by now for most EVs, but the vehicles and the infrastructure just isn't moving as fast as I thought it would, and now with green energy incentives disappearing, it's probably going to be an even longer haul...

 

[HopefullyR1S]

This is so false that it's not even funny. Not sure what you consider a long trip, but I recently drove from Florida to New York for a family function in my ICE Audi while my brother did the same drive in his Model 3 Long Range. We left within a few minutes of each other. I got back to NY ahead of him by more than 3 hours and I wasn't even trying to make good time. We even stopped for dinner at a restaurant, while they ate fast food at charging stops. Sorry, but the reality here is that it only takes a few minutes to fill a gas tank and you have to do it far less often than you have to stop to charge an EV. With my particular Audi, 500 miles on a tank of fuel is fairly easy to achieve, but we still stopped four times (once for dinner) and still got home much, much sooner.

I am sorry but this is false.
We have done 5-6000 miles of road tripping and have yet had to wait on a charge to finish.
However more than once I had to take our Outback (wife needs R1S for the day) and I would have to stop to get fuel in the morning. So annoying stopping to get gas before work.
I have stated before unless you are a hotshot delivery service or tow a trailer all the time EVs save time over all with regard to refueling.

 

[White Shadow]

I’m not sure that Rivian should do a range extender but I do agree the concept will be very popular in the US. My older brother has been pretty much against buying any EV. The main reason is that he can easily drive over 300 miles as he goes around to various job sites. However, the Scout Terra Harvester has his attention. For one he thinks is gorgeous but most importantly to him it should have 500 miles of range.

EREVs are a bridge to bring the majority of ICE owners into the EV world. The bulk of those folks will eventually see that a pure. EV can easily suit their needs and make that transition.

I'm actually leaning that way too. That's the big appeal with Scout and I think it would benefit Rivian to have similar technology in the R2, although it's probably too late now. But with the current climate here in the U.S., it certainly seems like a good move.

 

[White Shadow]

We play that game every few years and it never gets any better.

But sometimes it gets worse. Like 2025...

 

[White Shadow]

I am sorry but this is false.
We have done 5-6000 miles of road tripping and have yet had to wait on a charge to finish.
However more than once I had to take our Outback (wife needs R1S for the day) and I would have to stop to get fuel in the morning. So annoying stopping to get gas before work.
I have stated before unless you are a hotshot delivery service or tow a trailer all the time EVs save time over all with regard to refueling.

And that doesn't change the fact that you have to stop more often and for longer than an ICE vehicle. Sorry, this isn't an opinion, it's a fact. 6,000 miles is coast to coast and back in the USA. There is absolutely no way to make that trip in any EV as fast as you can do it in an ICE vehicle. Maybe some day, but not today. It's not even close.

 

[HopefullyR1S]

And that doesn't change the fact that you have to stop more often and for longer than an ICE vehicle. Sorry, this isn't an opinion, it's a fact. 6,000 miles is coast to coast and back in the USA. There is absolutely no way to make that trip in any EV as fast as you can do it in an ICE vehicle. Maybe some day, but not today. It's not even close.

You assume the fuel level is the limiting factor. We stop the same amount regardless of engine type.

 

[mkg3]

I think the R2 will launch, but with tariffs, potential increases in inflation, and the lack of the $7,500 tax credit it’s going to appeal to a much smaller percentage of the population than originally planned...

Maybe. The average new car price is just under $50K now ($49,550, according to the Automotive News) and that includes ICEs and EVs. At $45K, which I'm certain that will go up by the time the vhielce order occurs (not reservations but actual orders or access to the shop) closer to $50K but still just under.

If Rivian can delivery what they are showing with quality, they will sell lots of R2s. Just look at how many Model Ys were sold before the IRA Incentives started (about 404K vehicles in 2021 and 2022 combined in US). There was a period where Tesla had exceeded the 200k vehicle limit on the original incentives and were selling their EVs without any incentives and did just fine.

It's a value proposition for most people and if a quality product is put on the market and is compelling, then it will sell regardless of the incentives. Sure, they will lose some sales to those who only considered any EV due to the offset or those that were reaching for the purchase.

The best thing about not having the EV incentives is that people now have more apples-to-apples comparison between ICE, PHEV, EREV and BEV in terms of value proposition to the buyers and their individual use case.

At the end of the day, we'll all get a bette vehicles as the competition will ensure that or they won't be around.

 

[DuncIT]

Just read that the new spending bill removes EV tax credit and other clean energy incentives.
Is there any workaround for this?

The only workaround is to vote for a party that actually cares about the environment, and not their pocket books. No debating that, sorry.

Dunc

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