Federal NEVI EV charger program cancelled

[Donald Stanfield]

Both, just as it has been for centuries around the world by all countries with foreign interests. It's a complex topic.

Then, we need to reevaluate how we do things. Bribery is illegal for you or me to do; we shouldn't allow our government to do it either. I understand the world isn't black and white, but we can choose to deal with outside forces in an honorable manner.

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[JRock]

Well, that was the point mentioned above - you need to be rich to be able to have a choice. If not you end up in public schools with not the best results for you. Unless you live in very rich neighborhood, where public schools are good enough. And you can afford this if you are... rich...

And millions of people that send their kids to schools - whom you are talking about? You can not send kids to schools in US (not talking about colleges).

I think you meant, “ *who* are you talking about?”
It’s interesting that you decry wasteful spending from the government, but also criticize my person sacrifice to send my children to a religious school. Now, if you want to talk about how public schools are funded, I’m all for that. Property taxes targeted at school funding as it currently stands, devalue both the property and the schools. If all the property taxes in each state were collected and dispersed on a per-student case, that would be far more equitable and efficient. But the people in wealthier areas with more valuable property will never agree to that. Instead of looking for solutions like that, the so-called DOGE will simply destroy the Dept of Education. And who will benefit from that? The people you’re concerned about, who have no choice? Or the wealthy tax avoiders who have every choice?
I’m all for efficiency, but that’s not what DOGE is doing. They’re simply destroying programs and departments that the uninformed and the wealthier tax avoiders have been dreaming about for decades.

 

[Zoidz]

Then, we need to reevaluate how we do things. Bribery is illegal for you or me to do; we shouldn't allow our government to do it either. I understand the world isn't black and white, but we can choose to deal with outside forces in an honorable manner.

In the traditional sense, foreign aid isn't considered bribery. Two countries agree that they each have something the other wants or needs (food, natural resources, strategic location, etc.) and they agree on a working relationship and related commitments.

Did USAID stretch/violate that? It appears so and needs to be fixed.

But, as an example, does that also mean we should stop the programs that provide assistance to former Soviet satellites countries in exchange for allowing us to operate electronic survellance sites to monitor what Putin is doing?

It's complex.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

In the traditional sense, foreign aid isn't considered bribery. Two countries agree that they each have something the other wants or needs (food, natural resources, strategic location, etc.) and they agree on a working relationship and related commitments.

Did USAID stretch/violate that? It appears so and needs to be fixed.

But, as an example, does that also mean we should stop the programs that provide assistance to former Soviet satellites countries in exchange for allowing us to operate electronic survellance sites to monitor what Putin is doing?

It's complex.

If the aid is conditional on the ability to operate these sites and is openly stated, then it's not bribery; it's an exchange of goods or services. When you give someone money under the guise of humanitarian aid, and you expect a favor under the table, it is bribery. There is no accountability for aid; it is often used to receive kickbacks or political donations.

I don't see any reason to do these under-the-table dealings.

 

[shap]

I think you meant, “ *who* are you talking about?”
It’s interesting that you decry wasteful spending from the government, but also criticize my person sacrifice to send my children to a religious school. Now, if you want to talk about how public schools are funded, I’m all for that. Property taxes targeted at school funding as it currently stands, devalue both the property and the schools. If all the property taxes in each state were collected and dispersed on a per-student case, that would be far more equitable and efficient. But the people in wealthier areas with more valuable property will never agree to that. Instead of looking for solutions like that, the so-called DOGE will simply destroy the Dept of Education. And who will benefit from that? The people you’re concerned about, who have no choice? Or the wealthy tax avoiders who have every choice?
I’m all for efficiency, but that’s not what DOGE is doing. They’re simply destroying programs and departments that the uninformed and the wealthier tax avoiders have been dreaming about for decades.

I actually wrote correctly, there is nothing in this criticizing you in any way.

I was referring to you saying: quote - "I’d remind folks here, that millions of people from around the world send their kids here to be educated. "

I am not aware of people around the world (i.e. outside of the USA) that can send their kids to public schools in the USA.

On a separate note - in TX, they collect school taxes (~70-80% of property tax) and distribute them across TX. Called "The Robin Hood Plan". And this does not solve the problem of education...

The good schools here are where parents actually volunteer a lot (mostly moms who are not working). They free teachers from many admin tasks, so they have time to teach.

 

[captainjp]

I actually wrote correctly, there is nothing in this criticizing you in any way.

I was referring to you saying: quote - "I’d remind folks here, that millions of people from around the world send their kids here to be educated. "

I am not aware of people around the world (i.e. outside of the USA) that can send their kids to public schools in the USA.

On a separate note - in TX, they collect school taxes (~70-80% of property tax) and distribute them across TX. Called "The Robin Hood Plan". And this is not working as well.

The good schools here are where parents actually volunteer a lot (mostly moms who are not working). They free teachers from many admin tasks, so they have time to teach.

In 2022, nearly a million students from another country came to the U.S. for college. That is about 5% of higher education students, according to the Institute of International Education. In the past, many foreign students were graduate students.

 

[JRock]

In 2022, nearly a million students from another country came to the U.S. for college. That is about 5% of higher education students, according to the Institute of International Education. In the past, many foreign students were graduate students.

Wow. Lots of learning for shap today.
Also, foreign students pay full tuition. And yeah, they can and do go to public schools from kindergarten through university in virtually every state.
The more you know….

 

[captainjp]

Wow. Lots of learning for shap today.
Also, foreign students pay full tuition. And yeah, they can and do go to public schools from kindergarten through university in virtually every state.
The more you know….

 

[Donald Stanfield]

I think you meant, “ *who* are you talking about?”
It’s interesting that you decry wasteful spending from the government, but also criticize my person sacrifice to send my children to a religious school. Now, if you want to talk about how public schools are funded, I’m all for that. Property taxes targeted at school funding as it currently stands, devalue both the property and the schools. If all the property taxes in each state were collected and dispersed on a per-student case, that would be far more equitable and efficient. But the people in wealthier areas with more valuable property will never agree to that. Instead of looking for solutions like that, the so-called DOGE will simply destroy the Dept of Education. And who will benefit from that? The people you’re concerned about, who have no choice? Or the wealthy tax avoiders who have every choice?
I’m all for efficiency, but that’s not what DOGE is doing. They’re simply destroying programs and departments that the uninformed and the wealthier tax avoiders have been dreaming about for decades.

I'm the one who criticized your "personal sacrifice" to send your kids to private schools. First, I don't see how that conflicts with my position on wasteful government spending. Also, in the interest of full transparency, I send my son to a private school. I don't take issue with you doing so; I take issue with you advocating for the current state of public schooling while sending your kids to private schools.

The public school system as it currently stands is a failure. You seem to agree, as you opted out of that system for your children. Public schools spend more per student than other developed nations, yet we don't crack the top 20 in student rankings. The simple fact is that we spend too much and get too little. This flaw will not be solved by your idea of distributing money "equitably" (I disagree this is equitable).

It is self-evident that we have a problem with efficiency, not with financing, we are already spending more than any other country but getting fewer results. To fix this problem, structural changes are needed. School choice is one such structural change. It would give those poor kids you say you care about the same opportunities to attend the school you thought was good enough for your kids.

The department of education has been a failure based on student performance. Why is dismantling a failed system a bad thing? No one here has advocated for the removal of school funding, so you can drop that strawman. What I want is results for money spent. The current system isn't getting it done, and it should be replaced with one that is.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

In 2022, nearly a million students from another country came to the U.S. for college. That is about 5% of higher education students, according to the Institute of International Education. In the past, many foreign students were graduate students.

Shap very clearly said NOT college. He was talking about primary schools. Foreign students are NOT attending primary schools as a foreign student. They can only attend those if they are living as a resident of the US.

Wow. Lots of learning for shap today.
Also, foreign students pay full tuition. And yeah, they can and do go to public schools from kindergarten through university in virtually every state.
The more you know….

They only go to public schools if they are residents of the US. There is no student visa provision for primary school, only universities. Shap very clearly excluded universities from his statment.

 

[Dave Cundiff]

In your view, we already have an audit process, so we do not need to do anything else. The fact that we already have a process means one of two things: Either this process is working correctly, and we have no government waste and corruption, or it isn't working, and we should try something else.

I hope you aren't arguing that we have no waste or corruption, as we most certainly do. I don't know if the way we are going about it is the best way to do it. I'm not a political scientist. I do know that the way we did it before wasn't working.

In this respect, @Donald Stanfield, I actually think government should be run more like a business: Government should concentrate on getting the job done. That requires the right amount of auditing -- not too much, not too little.

***

My first government job in the 1980's involved statewide travel in New Jersey. In the early 1980s, when you needed to make a phone call from the field, you stopped at something called a "pay telephone" -- and, for local calls, you had to put in a quarter of your own money to complete the call.

So my monthly expenses -- gasoline, tolls, public transit, etc. -- included one pay phone call in the whole month. I put it onto my expense voucher, in triplicate NCR paper.

Next thing I know, I get a memo -- two-thirds of a page, single spaced, and typed by somebody -- patiently explaining that I had not included the place where I was when I made the phone call, nor the person I had made the call to. Therefore, the auditors could not determine whether this $0.25 charge was a legitimate charge to the taxpayers or not. To fix this, I should fill out the entire voucher again -- on the same triplicate NCR paper -- this time including the missing information. Until then, none of my monthly expenses -- about $325, as I remember -- could be reimbursed.

These auditors chose the most cautious course for themselves, and the most expensive course for the taxpayers. The scary part for me, which I didn't realize until later, is that this may have been the course that best fit with "what the voters want."

Your private sector jobs don't scrutinize every penny for absolute necessity. If you go out with suppliers or clients, I'll bet nobody asks, "Couldn't you have still landed the contract if you'd ordered the macaroni and cheese instead of the steak?"

***

As a taxpayer, I don't want to know every detail of every government agency's business. I want to know that those details are available to the right people. But I also want to know that the auditors understand the "big picture" of what the agency is trying to do; how it's measuring success and failure; and whether it's following the law and the rulebooks as it does its work.

I do know that condoms and HIV drugs and food and technical assistance for farmers save lives, reduce desperation, make friends, can prevent wars, and keep diseases from spreading in this interconnected world. And that's worth money. Here's what appears to be a reasonably objective explanation: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...musk-shut-down-budget-funding-doge-rcna190441 .

***

Looping back to NEVI, I am confident that NEVI standards are overbuilt for the need in some places. I'm confident that NEVI standards left out some things that I would have preferred to see in place. And I'm confident that NEVI subcontractors will vary a lot in their quality standards.

But I'm also confident that NEVI will build out some charging corridors that would have been poorly served without NEVI. And, if we still need publicly subsidized chargers for America's EV transition (which is still a needed transition, because our country is at risk from climate disruption too), I'm confident we'll learn lessons from NEVI that will be helpful in another round of the work.

***

Best wishes!

 

[SANZC02]

Just A couple of notes from the sidelines of this discussion.

Federal DOE does not set the school curriculums, that is all handled regionally. DOE is mostly student aid (think Pell grants and student loans) and financial help for school districts in financially challenged areas.

It is hard to draw a line globally on cost per student in the US without taking into account the cost of living. Just like in manufacturing when you are required to pay higher labor costs based on regional cost of living the cost per unit base is going to be higher.

 

[TJM]

I suggest editing the headline "Trump just canceled the federal NEVI EV charger program" to 'Trump is attempting to cancel the federal NEVI EV charger program"

 

[DuoRivian]

In this respect, @Donald Stanfield, I actually think government should be run more like a business: Government should concentrate on getting the job done. That requires the right amount of auditing -- not too much, not too little.

***

My first government job in the 1980's involved statewide travel in New Jersey. In the early 1980s, when you needed to make a phone call from the field, you stopped at something called a "pay telephone" -- and, for local calls, you had to put in a quarter of your own money to complete the call.

So my monthly expenses -- gasoline, tolls, public transit, etc. -- included one pay phone call in the whole month. I put it onto my expense voucher, in triplicate NCR paper.

Next thing I know, I get a memo -- two-thirds of a page, single spaced, and typed by somebody -- patiently explaining that I had not included the place where I was when I made the phone call, nor the person I had made the call to. Therefore, the auditors could not determine whether this $0.25 charge was a legitimate charge to the taxpayers or not. To fix this, I should fill out the entire voucher again -- on the same triplicate NCR paper -- this time including the missing information. Until then, none of my monthly expenses -- about $325, as I remember -- could be reimbursed.

These auditors chose the most cautious course for themselves, and the most expensive course for the taxpayers. The scary part for me, which I didn't realize until later, is that this may have been the course that best fit with "what the voters want."

Your private sector jobs don't scrutinize every penny for absolute necessity. If you go out with suppliers or clients, I'll bet nobody asks, "Couldn't you have still landed the contract if you'd ordered the macaroni and cheese instead of the steak?"

***

As a taxpayer, I don't want to know every detail of every government agency's business. I want to know that those details are available to the right people. But I also want to know that the auditors understand the "big picture" of what the agency is trying to do; how it's measuring success and failure; and whether it's following the law and the rulebooks as it does its work.

I do know that condoms and HIV drugs and food and technical assistance for farmers save lives, reduce desperation, make friends, can prevent wars, and keep diseases from spreading in this interconnected world. And that's worth money. Here's what appears to be a reasonably objective explanation: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...musk-shut-down-budget-funding-doge-rcna190441 .

***

Looping back to NEVI, I am confident that NEVI standards are overbuilt for the need in some places. I'm confident that NEVI standards left out some things that I would have preferred to see in place. And I'm confident that NEVI subcontractors will vary a lot in their quality standards.

But I'm also confident that NEVI will build out some charging corridors that would have been poorly served without NEVI. And, if we still need publicly subsidized chargers for America's EV transition (which is still a needed transition, because our country is at risk from climate disruption too), I'm confident we'll learn lessons from NEVI that will be helpful in another round of the work.

***

Best wishes!

I think there can be a fair debate whether NEVI was needed given how EA, Tesla, Rivian and others have and are building out a national fast charging network. The biggest gain for all of us has been Tesla opening up the supercharger network rather than the handful of chargers planned through NEVI.

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