R1S vs R1T Decision: Help...and Let's Play

[electruck]

^ Nice!

Let's all keep in mind that technically, the astronomical definition of summer is 6/20-9/22 this year. That means we could potentially be waiting until well into September for the configurator to come online.

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[Lmirafuente]

Ditto. And to your point, I received the following in an email yesterday from Ford - "the all-electric Mustang Mach‍-‍E you reserved is almost yours. In the next few days, you’ll be able to take the important step of completing your order and verifying your details to confirm your place in line. "

My daughter wants one of those Mach-E's too...it is not a bad alternative with a big establish company equiped with service centers.

Still not a Rivian, however, I am basing my trust on an unproven product. I guess I want Rivian to succeed and drinking the KoolAid

 

[Shzeph]

^ Nice!

Let's all keep in mind that technically, the astronomical definition of summer is 6/20-9/22 this year. That means we could potentially be waiting until well into September for the configurator to come online.

True enough. I would assume Rivian would be using either the common understanding of summer (June/July/August) or the business understanding (where Q3 is July/August/September)

In either case, I’m gonna hold out hope for August at the latest

 

[EyeOnRivian]

My daughter wants one of those Mach-E's too...it is not a bad alternative with a big establish company equiped with service centers.

Still not a Rivian, however, I am basing my trust on an unproven product. I guess I want Rivian to succeed and drinking the KoolAid

I use to have a '67 Mustang convertible so I kinda have a soft spot for them. Though the Mach-E looks very little like most of its ICE predecessors, I do like the styling of the Mach-E ... among other aspects such as what you mentioned.

My options are limited by focusing on American made EV SUV (CUV as a runner up) which got me excited about Rivian. However, with so many unknown variables with Rivian (price, standard vs optional, delivery, service, etc.) I wanted a back up plan in case Rivian dragged out releasing this information or it ended up not meeting my criteria. Rivian is still my primary choice. The KoolAid is refreshing. However, if for example it looks like I'll have to wait a year or more for my Rivian after I can get the Mack-E (reserved on day of reveal), I may just pull the trigger on the Mach-E. Doesn't mean I still can't get a Rivian down the road.

So all this contemplating on which one to choose is all good and a worth while exercise, however, I've yet to sit in any of them let alone go for a test drive. So while we all eagerly wait for the availability of the online configurator and the assumption it will answer the many questions we have, a test drive is still a top-of-the-list requirement for me at these price points before committing to a purchase, The timing of these test drives can easily make the difference for some on which one they purchase.

 

[Coast2Coast]

Fortunately, EyeOnRivian, you're not far from Normal, so when test drives are available, it will be easy to sit, drive, ride and contemplate to your heart's content. For the rest of us, spread out across N. America, it won't be so easy.

Question. The auto industry is global and Ford and GM rely heavily on non-U.S. parts. A fairly recent survey on this issue, at least one I remember, found the auto company with the highest level of U.S.-sourced value added was Toyota. Don't know if it's still true. No major battery company, supplying the highest cost component for a BEV, is American. Why is American made is a criterion? Not trying to start an argument. Just curious. (I understand and endorse the notion of supporting local business, but the auto industry is one of the most globalized businesses on the planet.)

 

[DucRider]

So while we all eagerly wait for the availability of the online configurator and the assumption it will answer the many questions we have, a test drive is still a top-of-the-list requirement for me at these price points before committing to a purchase, The timing of these test drives can easily make the difference for some on which one they purchase.

For what it's worth, you are more likely to get a test drive in a Rivian before a Mach E. Rivian will take them on tour (several dates were scheduled before COVID changed the landscape), whereas it is unlikely that Ford will make them available. Possibly at an Auto show or two (if they even exist next year), but certainly not at the dealer level. Dealers are essentially performing courtesy deliveries, but it some weird hybrid of the direct and dealer sales model. Dealers will be free to charge a "market adjustment fee" (and many will try and do so). The Kona EV carried $5K to $10k bump in many markets for quite a bit of time.

 

[EyeOnRivian]

Fortunately, EyeOnRivian, you're not far from Normal, so when test drives are available, it will be easy to sit, drive, ride and contemplate to your heart's content. For the rest of us, spread out across N. America, it won't be so easy.

Indeed that will be convenient for me if Rivian offers test drives from the Normal plant. I don't believe they have announced that but I suspect they will especially now since that is where the customer engagement center is located.

A little over a year ago there was speculation that "Rivian setting stage for introduction of a test drive program" but so far that hasn't panned out. However, upon some reflection I now wonder if those job openings were meant for in-house test drivers and not so much for assisting with public test drives. None the less, location is only half the equation. Again, it's also the "when." At least since last August the FAQ section of Rivian's website has indicated they will be "offering test drives closer to our launch at the end of 2020 " which is clearly now not until next year.

Question. The auto industry is global and Ford and GM rely heavily on non-U.S. parts. A fairly recent survey on this issue, at least one I remember, found the auto company with the highest level of U.S.-sourced value added was Toyota. Don't know if it's still true. No major battery company, supplying the highest cost component for a BEV, is American. Why is American made is a criterion? Not trying to start an argument. Just curious. (I understand and endorse the notion of supporting local business, but the auto industry is one of the most globalized businesses on the planet.)

Fair question. I don't know the percentage of auto-parts that are imported for some of the major auto manufacturers but it wouldn't surprise if most are. However, with the exception of the battery cells, Tesla is more vertical in the sense they manufacture more of their parts in-house. Rivian has said multiple times they have observed Tesla closely over the years. Will that translate to where/how they get their parts? Don't know. But again, IMO the parts are only part of the equation as American made typically also includes the "where." Where are jobs located that designed, tested, and assembled the vehicle? That overhead creates US jobs along with tax revenues that generated from the jobs (income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, etc.) The irony in this, for me, is that the Mach-E will be assembled in Cuautitlán Izcalli, Mexico. Nothing is straight forward at all in this process. Like with any large decision there are usually compromises to be made; just need to figure out how each one will affect the decision process.

 

[EyeOnRivian]

For what it's worth, you are more likely to get a test drive in a Rivian before a Mach E. Rivian will take them on tour (several dates were scheduled before COVID changed the landscape),

Perhaps, though Ford (read legacy-player-that's-been-down-this-road-before company) is moving things along, seemly faster than Rivian even when you factor in Rivian revealed a year before Ford. None the less, I'm curious about these "several dates were scheduled" not so much in the dates but the source. Do you happen to recall the source of that info as I have not heard that before. (See my previous post #67 about the test drive program/tour.)

Dealers are essentially performing courtesy deliveries, but it some weird hybrid of the direct and dealer sales model. Dealers will be free to charge a "market adjustment fee" (and many will try and do so). The Kona EV carried $5K to $10k bump in many markets for quite a bit of time.

Yea, unfortunately I've read about that in the Mach-E forums though I've seen it referred to as ADM - "Additional Dealer Markup." Some MME forum members have indicated they contacted many dealers and stipulated they will not pay an ADM and went with the best offer. That might not work for some who are in remote areas where say they have one or even no local dealer. Fortunately that's not the case for me, plus, depending how that this plays out (e.g. how much ADM they tag on or not) will just factor into my decision process since I also have the Rivian pre-order.

 

[Coast2Coast]

EyeOnRivian, good answer to my question, why is made in America important: "Where are jobs located that designed, tested, and assembled the vehicle? That overhead creates US jobs along with tax revenues that generated from the jobs (income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, etc.)"

Rivian, at least for the foreseeable future, is not running out of manufacturing room in Normal. I believe the plant has enough capacity for 250,000 vehicle per year; at least, that was the capacity when Mitsubishi Motors owned it. Maybe it will be a little less for Rivian as its vehicles are larger and Rivian doesn't have Mitsubishi's experience with high volume production. Even at 200,000 vehicles per year capacity, it will be at least 5-6 years before Rivian becomes production constrained.

Rivian will not outgrow the Normal plant anytime soon and, thus, the jobs will stay here. Presumably new vehicles on the drawing boards are being designed, engineered and developed mostly with existing personnel in present facilities, the bulk of which are in the U.S. There's an office in Vancouver, B.C. and one in England, but they're among the smaller Rivian operations.

So, Rivian is doing a good job of keeping jobs here and I suspect most of the parts, components and systems for Rivians are U.S.-sourced, minus the batteries, of course. So far Rivian seems intent on not going mainstream and focuses instead on specialized, targeted markets. The worry, of course, is those markets might balloon and become more mainstream, but that wouldn't be a bad thing.

The more Rivians, the better.

 

[Coast2Coast]

We discussed how much of a delay, if any, there might be between the production of a R1T and R1S. Initially, the R1S was scheduled to appear several months after the R1T but, as posts #46-50 pointed out, more recent information suggests there may not be much of a delay. Both vehicles should appear about the same time.

Then, the issue of vehicle timing morphed into questions of how long it might take Normal to get up to speed and running. That's tricky.

If Normal is fully staffed and back to work, which is not yet the case, how long will it take to set up various separate lines, for paint, batteries and two different truck assembly lines (Rivian & Amazon)? Once set up, there will be extensive efforts to proof and validate not only parts and components from suppliers but also fully assembled vehicles. There will be safety testing to meet state and federal laws. Dozens, perhaps hundreds, of Rivians will be driven to test fully assembled vehicles for defects, faults, leaks and failures. All of that information is fed back to suppliers and Rivian engineers, and solutions and/or resolutions are worked out. How long all of that takes presumably depends on the nature and magnitude of the faults, and Rivian's willingness to use customers as beta testers (that's discussed in another thread). The less likely Rivian is to use customers as beta testers, the longer it will take to have highly reliable Rivians ready to roll.

All in all, there's quite a lot involved in getting a plant up and running, coordinating with suppliers, proofing, testing and validating sub-systems and systems, safety testing, final assembly testing, and ultimately moving ready-to-ship vehicles out the door. Here's a schematized outline of the steps involved from an engineering firm that specializes in getting prototypes into production.

http://3dimensional.com/automotive-prototype-uses-concept-creation/

Given COVID-19 delays and all that's involved in getting new vehicles ready for customer delivery, I'm guessing it will be late first quarter 2021 at the earliest before any of us see our R1S's and R1T's.

 

[Shzeph]

Given COVID-19 delays and all that's involved in getting new vehicles ready for customer delivery, I'm guessing it will be late first quarter 2021 at the earliest before any of us see our R1S's and R1T's.

Yeah, I would concur with that. Even pre-COVID, I wasn’t expecting to get my R1S until sometime after March 2021, so late Q1 isn’t actually that bad

 

[Coast2Coast]

Notice, I said, late first quarter 2021 at the earliest

 

[Lmirafuente]

Hey guys. Adding to the deliberation.
2020 Rivian R1T Truck - Interior, Exterior & Driving
https://flip.it/UnsuFo

it is a consolidated set of videos but it seems to have more interior view and some dashboard views.

 

[hola29]

As I mentioned I am definitely in the R1S camp - mainly due to me being a urban dweller. The one thing I dislike about my current SUV is the hitch mount bike carrier on the back. It sticks out 1.5 feet and makes opening the rear door a two step process. Taking it on and off for a ride and then storing is also a major pain. If I have to mount another hitch based bike carrier I might as well get the R1T - it would be the same length - but bikes in the bed. Lifting and securing bikes on top of a 6 foot car does not sound super fun.

I honestly think there could be some innovation in the space, perhaps from Rivian...The designs of bike racks are pretty stagnant as far as the actual car manufacturers go. I have some designs actually but alas I don't work in automotive

Just some thoughts...

 

[Coast2Coast]

I don't know how many Rivian folks read these posts and threads, but let's hope however many they are, they take our concerns to heart.

A hitch mount bike carrier is a tough nut to crack. As you say, using one on a R1S makes it as long as an R1T. Do you have any suggestions for how it can be done more economically? Would a roll down back window on a R1S help? A different kind of roof mounted top rack? Ideas, recommendations?

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