Rivian Owners and Preorder Holders- Strange Entitlement?

[R1T-8171]

In short, respectfully, I think you're wrong. When you buy something, especially for high five figures, you are buying it. You aren't buying promises, hopes, or dreams and it being less expensive than it could have been is a moot point. They are not selling a beta test, they are selling a car.

At the end of the day, owners/pre-order holders can and SHOULD hold Rivian's products to a high standard.

The only strange entitlement I see is when people give Rivian a pass because, what, they're a new(ish?) company? RJ is a cool dude? "Well it could be a Tesla?"

No. Rivian is selling a product and consumers should always hold businesses responsible for the product they're selling. Rivian has huge backing, got a phenomenal evaluation, and has been in operation for years.. it's time for them to step up and stop with the excuses.
"

What excuses are you referencing? The same ones every single auto manufacture in the world is? Selling vehicles is what I do. Come to me and order a Jeep, it's 4 months minimum if there are no hiccups. Want a Hellcat Charger/Challenger? Give me a deposit today and you'll see it Q4 2023/Q1 2024, maybe. Same for commercial vehicles. Seems to be exactly what Rivian is telling everyone. I was old my R1S would be Q1 2023 after reserving it early 2022 so I patiently wait knowing it will be later and drive my R1T in the meantime. The fact is the entire globe is trying to play catch up with parts, chips and employee shortages. Rivian is no exception.

If you haven't had your vehicle delivered yet, you haven't bought anything. You've reserved a promise, hope and a dream, if anything at all. If you are unhappy, get your $1,000 back. Rivian isn't holding a gun to your head to buy their vehicle. I would have rather seen the price increase go in effect (as I was not an early R1T reservation holder) because it would have likely eliminated many buyers thru frustration/price point and I probably would have got my truck faster. Mainstream American auto manufactures do not price lock their vehicles, Rivian did this as a courtesy. Early reservation holders should be thankful.

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[mabowden]

What excuses are you referencing? The same ones every single auto manufacture in the world is? Selling vehicles is what I do. Come to me and order a Jeep, it's 4 months minimum if there are no hiccups. Want a Hellcat Charger/Challenger? Give me a deposit today and you'll see it Q4 2023/Q1 2024, maybe. Same for commercial vehicles. Seems to be exactly what Rivian is telling everyone. I was old my R1S would be Q1 2023 after reserving it early 2022 so I patiently wait knowing it will be later and drive my R1T in the meantime. The fact is the entire globe is trying to play catch up with parts, chips and employee shortages. Rivian is no exception.

If you haven't had your vehicle delivered yet, you haven't bought anything. You've reserved a promise, hope and a dream, if anything at all. If you are unhappy, get your $1,000 back. Rivian isn't holding a gun to your head to buy their vehicle. I would have rather seen the price increase go in effect (as I was not an early R1T reservation holder) because it would have likely eliminated many buyers thru frustration/price point and I probably would have got my truck faster. Mainstream American auto manufactures do not price lock their vehicles, Rivian did this as a courtesy. Early reservation holders should be thankful.

That is where I'm coming from. I'm thankful whenever this thing shows up. Getting a huge discount that anyone but Rivian wouldn't have given. Right time Right place.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

I look at this a very different way. Without the IPO, there would be zero possibility that Rivian would have been able to maintain pricing at it's current level for pre march 1st orders. So without the "IPO hype" we wouldn't be getting an incredible deal on this truck...

I don't think the backlash caused the price hike reverse. I think it was the massive equity drop the company saw after the price hike announcement. Let's say they had 70k pre orders by march 1st and the average increase is $15,000. That's a billion dollars, rough numbers. The stock went from $67 on Feb 28 to $35 on Mar 14, effectively wiping out 30 billion in market cap. The price reversal was an attempt to stop the bleeding.

The price reversal happened literally overnight which at the time seemed to be a reaction to how many people were canceling.

As an investor I didn't like the price hike reversal because in my eyes that was handing reservation holders roughly $15K in pure profits simply for having a $1K reservation. There was no reason to do so other than to appease angry customers who couldn't understand the difference between an order, and a reservation. Rivian didn't owe those customers the pricing at the time of the reservation.

As a customer with a pre-march reservation the price hike was still very real in that I went from buying a $75K truck to a $90K+ truck (approx). Sure I only paid the $75K, but whether I hold or sell is based on whether I can justify a $90K truck. Others have to justify a hold decision with a spouse who is eyeing the $15K+ in profits.

Ultimately with anything the rich people get it first, and than the poorer people. That's just how it works, and it makes sense as the rich can afford the issues that come with new things.

It's simply the natural order of things, and the price hike reversal for reservation holders messed with it. What Rivian did was gifted reservation holders willing to sell a bonus. It didn't really change the fact that rich people still got a Rivian, but instead of paying Rivian they simply handed an early customer a check for >$100K.

Rivian was never in danger of not having enough reservation holders. Even with the price hikes they would have won over EV customers.

A high price would have also allowed them to have a slower production ramp up as the price of each one would have been higher. Their production ramp up has outpaced their ability to service the vehicles they have shipped.

The price reversal for reservation holders certainly didn't help the stock price as it never did recover. It's been sitting in the 30's for quite some time.

In the end Rivian made a mistake the way they handled the price increase. They could have done something more middle ground to appease both investors and customers.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

What excuses are you referencing? The same ones every single auto manufacture in the world is? Selling vehicles is what I do. Come to me and order a Jeep, it's 4 months minimum if there are no hiccups. Want a Hellcat Charger/Challenger? Give me a deposit today and you'll see it Q4 2023/Q1 2024, maybe. Same for commercial vehicles. Seems to be exactly what Rivian is telling everyone. I was old my R1S would be Q1 2023 after reserving it early 2022 so I patiently wait knowing it will be later and drive my R1T in the meantime. The fact is the entire globe is trying to play catch up with parts, chips and employee shortages. Rivian is no exception.

If you haven't had your vehicle delivered yet, you haven't bought anything. You've reserved a promise, hope and a dream, if anything at all. If you are unhappy, get your $1,000 back. Rivian isn't holding a gun to your head to buy their vehicle. I would have rather seen the price increase go in effect (as I was not an early R1T reservation holder) because it would have likely eliminated many buyers thru frustration/price point and I probably would have got my truck faster. Mainstream American auto manufactures do not price lock their vehicles, Rivian did this as a courtesy. Early reservation holders should be thankful.

I think they were referring more to the excuses customers make for new companies.

Of giving Rivian a free pass for quality problems on new vehicles like the Tok sound, the tonneau cover, the panoroof glass breaks, body panel alignment issues, the glitchy error messages, and issues with scheduling service. These are just some examples that I see being talked about pretty often.

I've had my Rivian R1T since July, and it's only worked properly for about a week or so. It's constantly had some problem or another. I have an Service appointment in Mid-December to fix some strange noises. My vehicle is singlehandedly going to detract people from getting a Rivian because of the noises that it makes. Like one time I went by someone on the street who excitedly said to their friend "that's a rivian" as my vehicle was making the low speed tok'ing noise. I also had to explain to a valet once that the noise was most definitely not normal.

 

[R1T-8171]

I think they were referring more to the excuses customers make for new companies.

Of giving Rivian a free pass for quality problems on new vehicles like the Tok sound, the tonneau cover, the panoroof glass breaks, body panel alignment issues, the glitchy error messages, and issues with scheduling service. These are just some examples that I see being talked about pretty often.

I've had my Rivian R1T since July, and it's only worked properly for about a week or so. It's constantly had some problem or another. I have an Service appointment in Mid-December to fix some strange noises. My vehicle is singlehandedly going to detract people from getting a Rivian because of the noises that it makes. Like one time I went by someone on the street who excitedly said to their friend "that's a rivian" as my vehicle was making the low speed tok'ing noise. I also had to explain to a valet once that the noise was most definitely not normal.

The same problems could easily be said for every other company out there. I work in the automotive industry, I see every brand and all their faults. I don't think anyone is really giving them a pass. Hell, my R1T is in the shop now having the camera replaced. It has it's own minor issues. But I expected a vehicle which is relatively new to market to have some issues. My Grand Wagoneer did, my Hellcat did. I don't give them a pass, I expect them to improve upon the short comings found in all of our vehicles. We chose to be first in line.

 

[Sattman69]

Not trying to start world war 3 on the forums here, but as I was driving in on my way to work today (in my 16 vw gti) I was reminded of a few recent posts that just contained an odd sense of entitlement. I was behind a newer model S, and was comparing the two in my head:

Rivian (Pre march 1st):

• ~75k MSRP
• 0-60 3.2S
• ~320 mile range w/ 21"
• Immensely capable
• Tax credit eligible (~7500 off - I was corrected below)
• Gorgeous interior

Model S

• ~105k MSRP
• 0-60 3.1S
• 375 range
• Not Tax credit eligible
• Funky steering wheel?

So apples to apples with the tax credit we're talking a 40k difference for a much more capable vehicle. Yes, it bothers me a bit when I see posts that talk about getting cold feet, should I buy, etc, etc. If you don't want your 65k supertruck someone else in line (like me) will take it and give it a great home!

Also, I see a lot of posts that seem to completely disregard that Rivian is in its early growth. In general, highly valued companies in early growth stages can experience:

• Bad communication
• Bad customer service
• Seem disorganized
• Not have everything you want (AA/CP for example- a hill I'm willing to mention forever lol)
• Products with issues

If you are getting an early supertruck at a discount, we've all signed up for the notion that one or all of the above might happen. We all hope it doesn't, but if it does I find it unreasonable to completely explode about it. We are still beta testers. I would argue until they hit the 200k mark you are still a beta tester.

I'm not denying there have been stories on the forms (multiple months without a truck due to service issues, etc) where people have legitimate reasons to be upset, but something like "i bought this truck secondhand and Rivian cannot give me app access and the old owner has access to the gear guard which is why they have failed as a company," or "they added city sales tax too late" I mean, let's all be a bit realistic here.

Be nice to the Customer service folks, be nice to the service center folks, be nice to RJ, realize what you have signed up for. Even if there is a problem, being nice will always have a better outcome then overreacting about being a beta tester which we all acknowledged when we put in a deposit.

I'll get off my soapbox .

While I agree with most everything you say, you‘re not going to win this one. People who agree, get it. And people that don’t agree won’t get it.

My personal experience:
I loved the idea of the Rivian truck from the moment I saw it in 2019. But I recognized it was not a promise of delivery. So many risks, so many ways it could go wrong or simply not become a reality. I assume most everyone had similar thoughts. Smart people, successful and generally affluent people had to feel similar. I waited until early 2022 to commit to a preorder so I could avoid the roller coaster I fully expected. I live 800’ from Denver SC. I see R1T and R1S every day and it kills me to not have “my R1T”. But I know when I do get it, it will still be a new company, new truck, and a beta at some level for a fairly long time.

I’m not a victim because Rivian is not a villain. They are doing what they can, not blowing people off or disrespecting folks for their enjoyment. I put down $1,000, not $10,000. If it goes to zero, or I forfeit $100 I will be disappointed but not entirely surprised. I made the choice to jump in but believe that until I get my truck, it’s still just an idea and not a promise.

People blaming Rivian because they elevated their own expectations or unilaterally renegotiated the contract is unfair, no matter how justified one feels in doing so.
I believe karma is real, you make your own luck, and $hit happens for a reason.

Best of luck to everyone. I can’t wait to join the owners club!

 

[s4wrxttcs]

The same problems could easily be said for every other company out there. I work in the automotive industry, I see every brand and all their faults. I don't think anyone is really giving them a pass. Hell, my R1T is in the shop now having the camera replaced. It has it's own minor issues. But I expected a vehicle which is relatively new to market to have some issues. My Grand Wagoneer did, my Hellcat did. I don't give them a pass, I expect them to improve upon the short comings found in all of our vehicles. We chose to be first in line.

Certainly every brand has their faults, and it should be expected that any new model year is going to have issues. Especially from a brand new company.

But, at what point are there too many issues?

Rivian already has enough issues that I advise anyone who isn't within hundred miles or so of a SC to think twice about getting the vehicle at least for now.

I haven't bailed on Rivian as an owner or an investor. I'm simply an owner who expected things would be a bit more dialed in given how long it was being tested before it was ever manufactured. But, maybe I fell for the marketing.

In the next 6-12 months we'll see how things shape up. Clearly there is a ton of interest in the vehicle, and whether Rivian succeeds or fails is really up to their execution.

Right now its really depressing to see people not being able to do group rides because of some vehicle error. Or suspension issues while on group rides.

It's not just any vehicle, but an off-road vehicle where owners are going to be more rough on it than a typical vehicle. The owners also got the vehicles to drive them everywhere. I've been seeing way more Rivians than I expected at Chargers, and I think its because the owners are the types of people to go on adventures.

 

[NY_Rob]

Certainly every brand has their faults, and it should be expected that any new model year is going to have issues. Especially from a brand new company.

But, at what point are there too many issues?

Rivian already has enough issues that I advise anyone who isn't within hundred miles or so of a SC to think twice about getting the vehicle at least for now.

To add to the above... it's extremely frustrating and offputing to future potential owners when you hear people coming from the SC's saying they are being told "the Tok sound is normal because all the trucks have it" or "the sub frame is level to the ground and yes, the chassis is leaning down on the right front.. thanks for coming in" or "we will replace the cracked glass roof/windshield/back window" with no indication that Rivian is actually aware these are fairly widespread issues or have any idea on how to actually permanently fix these issues vs. just replacing parts with the same exact spec parts that are faulty. It's a waste of resources, Service Center personnel and most of all customer's time and effort.
At least they have admitted that the tonneau system is faulty right out of the factory and they are (supposedly) working on a redesign even now. But what about all the other common issues? Silence... If so many owners are bringing their vehicles in for the "Tok" issue, it's real... address it, don't ignore it. Same for the leaning issue... admit there is a problem and that your are trying to solve it at the engineering level vs. the SC tech's telling people "thanks for coming in"...

 

[Davethadog]

It’s not a discount if the product is incomplete and the service is sub par or unavailable. There’s never any excuse to be rude but wanting an expensive product to not suck and/or have glaring oversights (keys for example) isn’t entitlement.

Also, let’s not kid ourselves. The rivian isn’t a super truck. Yes, it’s fast. Yes, it’s somewhat capable. But there are absolutely compromises that you have to make and if you don’t see that you haven’t been living with it long enough. It’s the perfect truck for a lot of people if it’s hardly a “do all” truck. I’m enjoying the new super duty tremor that the temporary price disparity afforded me when I sold it though.

 

[R1T-8171]

Certainly every brand has their faults, and it should be expected that any new model year is going to have issues. Especially from a brand new company.

But, at what point are there too many issues?

Rivian already has enough issues that I advise anyone who isn't within hundred miles or so of a SC to think twice about getting the vehicle at least for now.

I haven't bailed on Rivian as an owner or an investor. I'm simply an owner who expected things would be a bit more dialed in given how long it was being tested before it was ever manufactured. But, maybe I fell for the marketing.

In the next 6-12 months we'll see how things shape up. Clearly there is a ton of interest in the vehicle, and whether Rivian succeeds or fails is really up to their execution.

Right now its really depressing to see people not being able to do group rides because of some vehicle error. Or suspension issues while on group rides.

It's not just any vehicle, but an off-road vehicle where owners are going to be more rough on it than a typical vehicle. The owners also got the vehicles to drive them everywhere. I've been seeing way more Rivians than I expected at Chargers, and I think its because the owners are the types of people to go on adventures.

I am not telling anyone to just suck it up, all I am saying is expect to have problems with a new release. Maybe I am used to it cause I work for the Chrysler Dodge Jeep Ram brand and nobody is worse at releasing a new vehicle than we are. Our brand has had so many hard landings you think we would have learned by now.

For me, issues with a new to market vehicle is expected. Only thing I ask is to be taken care of when issues arise and Rivian has done that for me. I am in a rental now, getting my camera system fixed. I get calls daily for updates so I can't complain. Maybe it helps that I have a service center in Orlando that's only 45 minutes from the house.

 

[NY_Rob]

Maybe it helps that I have a service center in Orlando that's only 45 minutes from the house.

I'd say that's huge because a 45min trip is an average work commute for many people. Frustration factors in when the SC is a 3-6hr distance and you get jerked around with things not actually being "fixed" just temporarily repaired till the same issue crops up again.

 

[mabowden]

I am not telling anyone to just suck it up, all I am saying is expect to have problems with a new release. Maybe I am used to it cause I work for the Chrysler Dodge Jeep Ram brand and nobody is worse at releasing a new vehicle than we are. Our brand has had so many hard landings you think we would have learned by now.

For me, issues with a new to market vehicle is expected. Only thing I ask is to be taken care of when issues arise and Rivian has done that for me. I am in a rental now, getting my camera system fixed. I get calls daily for updates so I can't complain. Maybe it helps that I have a service center in Orlando that's only 45 minutes from the house.

Yep. That is the main reason for the post.

I'm not saying that there haven't been legitimate issues and concerns arising from the forums. I'm just seeing a lot of people get super bent out of shape for seemingly smaller issues on a new release, new company vehicle.

I'm not giving Rivian a hall pass on all of the stories on this forum, just more than most I feel some of the folks on here are expecting OE level service on a company that has only produced maybe 20k vehicles total.

 

[RWerksman]

Looking back in my Rivian experience so far, I would definitely say it has not exactly been smooth. From initial headaches with delivery, to five months for title and registration work to be completed, to a variety of issues with the vehicle itself, and now with the towing debacle that I have to advocate for myself on.

One thing that they consistently get right though is the way that I've been spoken to. Every single individual that I've ever interacted with at Rivian has been faultlessly kind in dealing with me. Even in situations where they have clearly underdelivered, they have been empathetic and willing to help as much as they could.

Intern I have done my best to mirror back how they speak to me. Despite having to advocate for myself on numerous occasions, I've tried to do so in a way the values the human that I am speaking to.

While we, as a group, are never going to be able to codify requirements from Rivian, I think it's incredibly imperative that we do our best to self police how we interact with them.


Stand up for yourself, to do it in the nicest, kindest way possible.


...maybe then come back here and tell us all about it so we can learn from your interaction.

 

[moosetags]

I am that "guy in Florida" that the OP mentioned earlier in this thread. My second day reservation of November 28, 2018, for an R1T still goes unfilled primarily because I don't live in the "correct" place. As I approach the fourth anniversary of my Rivian reservation, I am trying not to feel entitled but, admittedly, I am feeling disappointed.

We live in an area where we are unlikely to see a Rivian Service Center for several more years.

There is one area that I do feel entitled. I feel that I am entitled to eventually purchase a brand new four motor Rivian R1T at the same price as 20,000+ other Rivian owners paid for theirs. The vast majority of these current Rivian owners placed their orders after we did.

So yes, I am "entitled".

Brian

 

[mabowden]

I am that "guy in Florida" that the OP mentioned earlier in this thread. My second day reservation of November 28, 2018, for an R1T still goes unfilled primarily because I don't live in the "correct" place. As I approach the fourth anniversary of my Rivian reservation, I am trying not to feel entitled but, admittedly, I am feeling disappointed.

We live in an area where we are unlikely to see a Rivian Service Center for several more years.

There is one area that I do feel entitled. I feel that I am entitled to eventually purchase a brand new four motor Rivian R1T at the same price as 20,000+ other Rivian owners paid for theirs. The vast majority of these current Rivian owners placed their orders after we did.

So yes, I am "entitled".

Brian

You definitely get a hall pass.

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