TALKIN' TANK TURNS - - When, Where & How??

[CommodoreAmiga]

There's not a great answer other than leaving it unlocked and letting the user chose/face the consequences.

That's why my position is it shouldn't be locked and responsibility ultimately must fall to the operator.

It'll be interesting to see what Rivian ends up doing.

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[Sean]

If their testing shows that tank turns lead to high rates of failure then don't enable it (but share that info). I want them to release it as its such a cool feature and they will get lots of extra attention because of it.

Warranty exclusions could play a part in how to police "good behavior." Hopefully, this is where it lands.

But if the feature is released, I don't see a valid way to restrict its use in that I, as the driver, am responsible. I can do dumb things by accident or on purpose, but I am responsible.

Here's a thought experiment, say your kid is in mortal danger and the best way you can think of to rescue them is to drive through a wall. But crash avoidance systems automatically stop the car and you can't turn it off. Does that make sense?

Party trick or not, (if released) give me the full capabilities. Programmers can't anticipate for all possible needs for a capability.

 

[DucRider]

The dilemma for Rivian is their engineers have already explicitly stated that a tank turn on pavement will damage the vehicle. In order for the feature to be included, Rivian will have to ensure that the vehicle "knows" that it is being executed under suitable conditions (as defined by Rivian).

A disclaimer in the manual and/or on the screen won't cover them. If someone were to try it on pavement and break the vehicle, the burden is on Rivian to prove that was the cause of the damage in order to deny warranty coverage. Therefore Rivian has to figure out how to restrict it's usage.

If Rivian could allow an owner to sign away their warranty rights on some components in order to enable tank turns, that might get them off the hook. But probably not a path that Rivian wants to pursue or that most owners would be interested in.

 

[Sean]

The dilemma for Rivian is their engineers have already explicitly stated that a tank turn on pavement will damage the vehicle. In order for the feature to be included, Rivian will have to ensure that the vehicle "knows" that it is being executed under suitable conditions (as defined by Rivian).

A disclaimer in the manual and/or on the screen won't cover them. If someone were to try it on pavement and break the vehicle, the burden is on Rivian to prove that was the cause of the damage in order to deny warranty coverage. Therefore Rivian has to figure out how to restrict it's usage.

If Rivian could allow an owner to sign away their warranty rights on some components in order to enable tank turns, that might get them off the hook. But probably not a path that Rivian wants to pursue or that most owners would be interested in.

To a point. But 11 cameras and whatever thousands of data points uploaded to them should make it something they can prove easily in warranty claims.

 

[SANZC02]

The dilemma for Rivian is their engineers have already explicitly stated that a tank turn on pavement will damage the vehicle. In order for the feature to be included, Rivian will have to ensure that the vehicle "knows" that it is being executed under suitable conditions (as defined by Rivian).

A disclaimer in the manual and/or on the screen won't cover them. If someone were to try it on pavement and break the vehicle, the burden is on Rivian to prove that was the cause of the damage in order to deny warranty coverage. Therefore Rivian has to figure out how to restrict it's usage.

If Rivian could allow an owner to sign away their warranty rights on some components in order to enable tank turns, that might get them off the hook. But probably not a path that Rivian wants to pursue or that most owners would be interested in.

Probably easiest way to prevent this from being used on those services is to limit power output in tank turn mode. You do not need that much torque to spin tires on loose services. If you limit the power when enabled, if you are on a solid surface it would be like trying to do a burnout with a stock 73 Vega.

 

[DucRider]

To a point. But 11 cameras and whatever thousands of data points uploaded to them should make it something they can prove easily in warranty claims.

Having stuff break and denying warranty claims is not something they want for either owners nor themselves.
Look at the reaction this forum has over inconsequential stuff. If Rivian denies a warranty claim around a feature they enabled, do you think it possible it gets blown up in both the forums and the mainstream press? Do you think they should take that chance?

Probably easiest way to prevent this from being used on those services is to limit power output in tank turn mode. You do not need that much torque to spin tires on loose services. If you limit the power when enabled, if you are on a solid surface it would be like trying to do a burnout with a stock 73 Vega.

This is likely a solution they are exploring.

 

[Sean]

Having stuff break and denying warranty claims is not something they want for either owners nor themselves.
Look at the reaction this forum has over inconsequential stuff. If Rivian denies a warranty claim around a feature they enabled, do you think it possible it gets blown up in both the forums and the mainstream press? Do you think they should take that chance?


This is likely a solution they are exploring.

It happens. People do dumb stuff and break their stuff. However, Rivian having all the data and camera feeds would be in a pretty powerful position to combat that.

Look at Telsa with auto-pilot. I mean people literally have died being dumb with that feature but should they take it away because of the few? Do the Telsa forum users begrudge the company for denying a warranty claim or are they siding against the person?

 

[DucRider]

It happens. People do dumb stuff and break their stuff. However, Rivian having all the data and camera feeds would be in a pretty powerful position to combat that.

Look at Telsa with auto-pilot. I mean people literally have died being dumb with that feature but should they take it away because of the few? Do the Telsa forum users begrudge the company for denying a warranty claim or are they siding against the person?

Rivian does not want to get in a situation where they have to "combat" an owner.

Tesla AP is a different story - I don't know of any warranty claims related to it's use.

It's safety is another issue and yes the press does beat them up about it even with all the disclaimers they have.

Among the most recent:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37320725/nhtsa-investigating-tesla-autopilot-crashes-fatalities/
And this:
"The first step in protecting everyone else from Teslas":
https://slate.com/technology/2021/08/tesla-autopilot-nhtsa-clever.html

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

The dilemma for Rivian is their engineers have already explicitly stated that a tank turn on pavement will damage the vehicle. In order for the feature to be included, Rivian will have to ensure that the vehicle "knows" that it is being executed under suitable conditions (as defined by Rivian).

A disclaimer in the manual and/or on the screen won't cover them. If someone were to try it on pavement and break the vehicle, the burden is on Rivian to prove that was the cause of the damage in order to deny warranty coverage. Therefore Rivian has to figure out how to restrict it's usage.

If Rivian could allow an owner to sign away their warranty rights on some components in order to enable tank turns, that might get them off the hook. But probably not a path that Rivian wants to pursue or that most owners would be interested in.

I don't buy that, at all.

Every 4x4 vehicle with a two-speed transfer case has not prevented LOW RANGE operation on pavement. There may be warnings in the manual, but it's not actively prevented from use.

And I have personally chewed up a front half-shaft using low range. I bought a new one, installed it, and went on with my life.

My warranty didn't explode. And lawyers didn't make any money.

 

[Sean]

Rivian does not want to get in a situation where they have to "combat" an owner.

There will be disputes. Hopefully very few but it's going to happen.

Tesla AP is a different story - I don't know of any warranty claims related to it's use.

Here's where its similar to me... If you abuse the feature to get in a wreck that damages your car is it your fault or the company that enabled the feature? It is different in that tank turn may lead to less obvious failures over time. I only provided it as an example of a "new" feature that can be considered dangerous in the wrong hands.

It's safety is another issue and yes the press does beat them up about it even with all the disclaimers they have.

Among the most recent:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37320725/nhtsa-investigating-tesla-autopilot-crashes-fatalities/
And this:
"The first step in protecting everyone else from Teslas":
https://slate.com/technology/2021/08/tesla-autopilot-nhtsa-clever.html

I know we're debating here but it's the person's fault. Now could Telsa do better? Yes. For sure. Something similar to driver monitoring like Rivian is actually where they are going.

As I said in my first post on this, if the feature doesn't work (as in if there isn't a reliable way to operate it) then they shouldn't release it. No one wants a "make your wheels fall off button." But if they do release it, my argument is for driver controlled activation and not an algorithm telling me if I can do it or not.

 

[DuckTruck]

Probably easiest way to prevent this from being used on those services is to limit power output in tank turn mode. You do not need that much torque to spin tires on loose services. If you limit the power when enabled, if you are on a solid surface it would be like trying to do a burnout with a stock 73 Vega.

A ‘73 Vega with old tires and no Posi-Traction might make it at least a little easier.

Seriously though, I would imagine both the power and speed available in T.T. mode have always been limited.

 

[skyote]

I remember hearing the R1s will test traction prior to executing the tank turn. If it's on pavement and the vehicle doesn't detect any surface slip, then it won't work.

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