Dual Motor range estimate

[theyoungone]

I know a lot of people are waiting to see what the dual motor Enduro (in-house Rivian motors) setup will average in terms range on the R1T & R1S. I’ve gone back and forth myself on what would make me go with Dual Motor vs. Quad and I’ve come up with anything 350-360 would make me choose the Dual over quad.

Anything less than 350 just doesn’t seem like it would be worth the cost over performance savings. Have any of you put together numbers or have any thoughts about how much more efficiency they’ll really be able to squeak out of 2 motors vs. 4?

I have my own small business and travel a lot so range is more of a concern for me than anything. The current 321 on the R1S is great but 355 or 360 mi at 8K cheaper would seal the freaking deal for me.

Sponsored

 

[MountainBikeDude]

Running the numbers assuming the Enduro is running on a 165kWh max pack due to packaging constraints, it is only showing a negligible efficiency boost from around 400 miles /165kWh = 2.4242 miles per KWh vs 2.4242 x 135kWh = 327 miles on the standard pack.

The performance gains they've made thus far with the Quad likely are what enabled the Dual Max to get to 400 miles on 165 instead of 180kWh.

Note that the Max Pack size is based on evidence given module packaging constraints. The 180kWh original max size had required a module to be placed above the pack in order to fit. It appears they got away from the need for a 12th module at 15kwh with efficiency gains.

 

[jjswan33]

Running the numbers assuming the Enduro is running on a 165kWh max pack due to packaging constraints, it is only showing a negligible efficiency boost from around 400 miles /165kWh = 2.4242 miles per KWh vs 2.4242 x 135kWh = 327 miles on the standard pack.

The performance gains they've made thus far with the Quad likely are what enabled the Dual Max to get to 400 miles on 165 instead of 180kWh.

Note that the Max Pack size is based on evidence given module packaging constraints. The 180kWh original max size had required a module to be placed above the pack in order to fit. It appears they got away from the need for a 12th module at 15kwh with efficiency gains.

Keep in mind 2023 EPA is 329 miles and a 125 kWh usable pack, so current efficiency since latest update would pencil out to 2.63 mi/kWh. If you assume 10kWh held back in your 165kWh estimate then 155kWh * 2.63 = 407.65, now if they hold back 15 kWh then 394.5 giving a range of 395 to 408 miles minus any loss of efficiency due to added weight. So it seems they are already capable of near 400miles with a 165kWh pack. Any improvement with the enduro motors would be gravy.

 

[Rivian_Hugh_III]

But would you like the driving dynamics with dual motors, and would you miss having four motors in slippery conditions?

 

[Goose]

But would you like the driving dynamics with dual motors, and would you miss having four motors in slippery conditions?

This isn’t a valid reason. Use of a locking diff and appropriate brake vectoring will work just as well as a quad motor. We’ve had a single motor in ICE cars for a long time now.

 

[theyoungone]

Keep in mind 2023 EPA is 329 miles and a 125 kWh usable pack, so current efficiency since latest update would pencil out to 2.63 mi/kWh. If you assume 10kWh held back in your 165kWh estimate then 155kWh * 2.63 = 407.65, now if they hold back 15 kWh then 394.5 giving a range of 395 to 408 miles minus any loss of efficiency due to added weight. So it seems they are already capable of near 400miles with a 165kWh pack. Any improvement with the enduro motors would be gravy.

thanks for the breakdown! honestly this is pretty much what i was looking for. we know that enduro will be slightly more efficient and so a dual R1S at 125kWh w/efficiency at 2.8 mi/kWh is 360 miles.

 

[theyoungone]

But would you like the driving dynamics with dual motors, and would you miss having four motors in slippery conditions?

Just being honest I love the vehicle but it’ll see more adventures on interstates vs. off-roading for me in the Southeast. At 6-8K (I’m unfortunately post-March pricing unless you know someone willing to part ways with their R1S ?) cheaper (Dual Motor Enhanced) if i have a max range of 365 miles I’ll take that for sure over the extra HP.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

Keep in mind 2023 EPA is 329 miles and a 125 kWh usable pack, so current efficiency since latest update would pencil out to 2.63 mi/kWh. If you assume 10kWh held back in your 165kWh estimate then 155kWh * 2.63 = 407.65, now if they hold back 15 kWh then 394.5 giving a range of 395 to 408 miles minus any loss of efficiency due to added weight. So it seems they are already capable of near 400miles with a 165kWh pack. Any improvement with the enduro motors would be gravy.

Part of the issue is they are only quoting the Enduro hitting "a target range around 400+ miles" with their max pack, so working the numbers back and forth still only equates to a similar efficiency between quad and Enduro. You may see a 5-10 mile difference between drivetrains in the end, but not 20+ like OP is hoping for IMO.

 

[theyoungone]

Part of the issue is they are only quoting the Enduro hitting "a target range around 400+ miles" with their max pack, so working the numbers back and forth still only equates to a similar efficiency between quad and Enduro. You may see a 5-10 mile difference between drivetrains in the end, but not 20+ like OP is hoping for IMO.

so then in the end is the point if a dual motor setup only to introduce a more affordable option? Bc 8K less for only 10 more miles is INSANE.

 

[Caleb S]

If the EPA rated range is now up to 321/328 in conserve mode you may be close to getting 350 with the quad motor currently with the 21 inch tires. Effectively running in conserve with quad motors should have close to the same efficiency as as the dual motor setup. Unless Rivian offers some kind of discount for pre-price increase reservations holders there does not seem like much of a reason to change from quad to dual motor configurations.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

so then in the end is the point if a dual motor setup only to introduce a more affordable option? Bc 8K less for only 10 more miles is INSANE.

I would say the opposite is more true, 8k for two additional motors is more insane.

The dual motor is a two fold proposition for Rivian and the consumer, a more cost effective entry point while delivering similar range and performance, while also bringing the drivetrain fully in house.

As I mentioned, expecting a double digit range increase by stepping down to dual is fairly unlikely. From another angle, if you were to get 350 from a large dual, and 400 from a dual max at a battery pack premium of 10k USD, who would pay 10k for 50 miles?

 

[COdogman]

so then in the end is the point if a dual motor setup only to introduce a more affordable option? Bc 8K less for only 10 more miles is INSANE.

It offers a possibility many will want. It’s less expensive but nearly as capable As the quad motor. maybe it only offers 10 more miles in range, but it is also only a second slower and equal performance off the pavement. As @MountainBikeDude says, the better question is whether the quad motor is really worth the extra cost.

When I saw the offer from Rivian regarding dual motor pricing I was wishing I could switch too and save myself some $.

 

[Monkey]

This isn’t a valid reason. Use of a locking diff and appropriate brake vectoring will work just as well as a quad motor. We’ve had a single motor in ICE cars for a long time now.

And dual-motor AWD traction control in existing EVs -- Tesla, Audi/VW, Ford... is pretty awesome. The quad motor is cool and all, but I think I'd really only want it for off-roading. Since I'm pretty much done waiting for the Max Pack, bought the Lightning and all that, I think my wife and I are going to use the reservation for a dual motor R1S.

 

[Goose]

thanks for the breakdown! honestly this is pretty much what i was looking for. we know that enduro will be slightly more efficient and so a dual R1S at 125kWh w/efficiency at 2.8 mi/kWh is 360 miles.

If the dual motor comes out with 360 miles of range out of the large pack I will happily reorder an R1T. That will give plenty of range while towing my light(ish) boat.

 

[WSea]

Interesting- just noticed my AP range at 70% shows 229 on app. That’s pretty close to 330 at 100 now And probably more in conserve. WooHoo!

Edit- did a little experiment the last few days. Been getting around 1.5mi/kWh for local short trips with lots of hills. changed to charging for 30-90minutes prior to departure and am getting a little over 2mi/kWh now. Same hills but each trip a bit different so not an exact comparison.

Sponsored