Do I really need the Max Pack?

[Wanderer]

I have no idea where those numbers come from nor anything about the test procedure, sample size etc. so I can't comment. I do have some data collected from the Tesla fleet - all models. The average Tesla driver at this time of year attains 88% efficiency with respect to EPA rated consumption. Only 17% realize better than 100% and less than 1% realize rhe efficiency I do (118%). Note that this is mixed over all Teslas and all driving conditions. It is historical data collected from the cars as they are drive.

I provided the link (fixed the url, which wasn’t working previously), so the information is all there. It’s as good of a non biased test as there is, all vehicles driving the same track at same speed.

The notion of highway range being far lower than stated range is purely a result of Tesla owner experiences, which admittedly is the majority of EV owners. Most other makers state the range that’s closer to highway range so that it’s more accurate, whereas Tesla states the highest number they can get away with. That’s likely been beneficial to EV adoption in the short term, but not without residual effects on perspectives of what to expect.

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[ajdelange]

Link still doesn't work. But it doesn't have to. If someone ran a few cars around a track then the test is pretty worthless. To get a meaningful result you'd have to collect a large ensemble of real world data similar to the data I referred not that that set is the do all and end all of robustness.

 

[BigE]

I well remember wondering why i got cleared to a very long runway for takeoff even though I was a little bitty single engine job and had landed on a much shorter runway an hour or so earlier. I found out soon enough.

Question for some of you, smarter than me. This has been bugging me for a while, Large vs Max and I keep changing. Can we talk Miles/kWh? So Rivian by their numbers is guessing 2.22 miles/kWh for both L & Max if they are still 135/180 kWh packs. Say I pull my small 3K lb camper with lots of wind resistance. I've been playing with ABRPlanner and you can change many of the variables. For a regular trip we take, I input 1.11 miles/kWh and compared L vs M pack. For this trip the difference is 8hrs. 3 min with Max vs 9 hr 8 min. Both trips result in 3 stops, just shorter with the Max pack. Is anyone else looking at Miles/kWh? For me, to add another hour to this common trip for us, the Max pack is a no-brainer.

 

[Wanderer]

Link still doesn't work. But it doesn't have to. If someone ran a few cars around a track then the test is pretty worthless. To get a meaningful result you'd have to collect a large ensemble of real world data similar to the data I referred not that that set is the do all and end all of robustness.

Link works. Until more robust data is provided, I’m right and you’re wrong.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Question for some of you, smarter than me. This has been bugging me for a while, Large vs Max and I keep changing. Can we talk Miles/kWh? So Rivian by their numbers is guessing 2.22 miles/kWh for both L & Max if they are still 135/180 kWh packs. Say I pull my small 3K lb camper with lots of wind resistance. I've been playing with ABRPlanner and you can change many of the variables. For a regular trip we take, I input 1.11 miles/kWh and compared L vs M pack. For this trip the difference is 8hrs. 3 min with Max vs 9 hr 8 min. Both trips result in 3 stops, just shorter with the Max pack. Is anyone else looking at Miles/kWh? For me, to add another hour to this common trip for us, the Max pack is a no-brainer.

My concern isn't 300 miles vs 400 miles.

My concern is what if I need to go a distance where a couple of the following are also true:

1. It's really f-in hot
2. It's really f-in cold
3. I'm towing a big+heavy load
4. I'm increasing in elevation a significant amount

We know, from other EV's, that extreme temperatures reduce range. Cold weather, in particular, can drop range by 50%. Heating the cabin uses a lot of power. Heating the battery packs uses a lot of power. Cold increases losses due to friction. And batteries are less efficient when cold. To add insult to injury, charging speeds can be reduced when cold, too.

We've heard that towing can reduce range buy up to 50%, independent of other factors. Imagine if it's cold and you're towing? That 400 mile range may be 100 miles. And since we don't actually drive until completely empty, you may only go 80 miles (charging to 100% and leaving 20 mile range as an "empty" buffer).

And we all know that going up a mountain increases consumption.

 

[ajdelange]

Link works. Until more robust data is provided, I’m right and you’re wrong.

Link works now.

Any data would be more robust than this data! I don't expect you to understand why that is and I'm not going to go into it because it would lead to the fruitless arguments I always get myself into evn though I know better.

 

[jjwolf120]

Link works. Until more robust data is provided, I’m right and you’re wrong.

No, your not. The sample size is to small to be valid. You have some data, which cannot be used to draw any conclusions.

 

[BigE]

My concern isn't 300 miles vs 400 miles.

My concern is what if I need to go a distance where a couple of the following are also true:

1. It's really f-in hot
2. It's really f-in cold
3. I'm towing a big+heavy load
4. I'm increasing in elevation a significant amount

We know, from other EV's, that extreme temperatures reduce range. Cold weather, in particular, can drop range by 50%. Heating the cabin uses a lot of power. Heating the battery packs uses a lot of power. Cold increases losses due to friction. And batteries are less efficient when cold. To add insult to injury, charging speeds can be reduced when cold, too.

We've heard that towing can reduce range buy up to 50%, independent of other factors. Imagine if it's cold and you're towing? That 400 mile range may be 100 miles. And since we don't actually drive until completely empty, you may only go 80 miles (charging to 100% and leaving 20 mile range as an "empty" buffer).

And we all know that going up a mountain increases consumption.

So your saying, buy a Ford F-150 Hybrid?

 

[ajdelange]

My concern isn't 300 miles vs 400 miles.

My concern is what if I need to go a distance where a couple of the following are also true:

1. It's really f-in hot
2. It's really f-in cold
3. I'm towing a big+heavy load
4. I'm increasing in elevation a significant amount

We know, from other EV's, that extreme temperatures reduce range. Cold weather, in particular, can drop range by 50%. Heating the cabin uses a lot of power. Heating the battery packs uses a lot of power. Cold increases losses due to friction. And batteries are less efficient when cold. To add insult to injury, charging speeds can be reduced when cold, too.

We've heard that towing can reduce range buy up to 50%, independent of other factors. Imagine if it's cold and you're towing? That 400 mile range may be 100 miles. And since we don't actually drive until completely empty, you may only go 80 miles (charging to 100% and leaving 20 mile range as an "empty" buffer).

And we all know that going up a mountain increases consumption.

All these concerns are realistic concerns. There are things you can do about most of them but if you have to deal with them you must take them into consideration in trip planning. As you learn how your vehicle performs under various conditions this will become second nature.

If the weather is really hot and the AC is gobbilng Wh you can turn it off. Not the most desirable thing to do and it will not reduce the energy required to cool the battery but it will help. Slowing down means less current through the battery, less internal heat and less cooling required. Prolongs the agony, of course, but it will get you miles.

If its really cold you can turn cabin heat way down or off. I believe the Rivians have heated seats. They use less power than cabin heat and really work well to keep you warm. There are blankets you can buy that plug into the "cigarette lighter".

Etc. But in all cases extra miles in the back pocket are a comfort.

 

[ajdelange]

No, your not. The sample size is to small to be valid. You have some data, which cannot be used to draw any conclusions.

Hey - thanks! It's nice to have someone else do it for a change.

 

[Dark-Fx]

My biggest reason for not getting the Max Pack is I'm still unconvinced that it will be enough for winter time towing of snowmobiles. I'd rather buy the lower pack now (it's quicker too) and wait for something else with even more range in a few years. I do fine on the 238 in my Bolt.

 

[Wanderer]

No, your not. The sample size is to small to be valid. You have some data, which cannot be used to draw any conclusions.

This isn’t a science experiment. I’m well versed in the dark arts of statistics.

Mass produced vehicles are standardized so you don’t need a thousand tests of the same vehicle to see how it performs. Sometimes you just have to accept the 95% confidence interval and move on.

It is a completely supported position to say that EVs on average do not experience a 20% drop in range at highway speeds. At worst you have a Tesla and it’s 10-15%, and at best you’re under 5%.

Anything more and there is another variable involved like temp or elevation change.

Using the sample size argument would imply that no reliable range estimates exist for any vehicle, including the EPA certified values. So we’re all just feeling around in the dark.

 

[Dark-Fx]

This isn’t a science experiment. I’m well versed in the dark arts of statistics.

Mass produced vehicles are standardized so you don’t need a thousand tests of the same vehicle to see how it performs. Sometimes you just have to accept the 95% confidence interval and move on.

It is a completely supported position to say that EVs on average do not experience a 20% drop in range at highway speeds. At worst you have a Tesla and it’s 10-15%, and at best you’re under 5%.

Anything more and there is another variable involved like temp or elevation change.

I lose more than 20% over EPA rating in my Bolt if I'm driving 80 mph, that's typically the speed I drive on the highway here regardless of what vehicle I'm in. If it's a long trip in the Bolt and I have to stop to recharge, I slow down a lot.

 

[jjwolf120]

Sometimes you just have to accept the 95% confidence interval and move on.

If you are well versed in the dark arts of statistical analysis, you're not using your skills. You don't have enough data to get to 95% confidence interval and you should know it. You don't need thousands of test runs, but you do need at least tens of test runs to draw any real conclusions.

 

[ajdelange]

This isn’t a science experiment. I’m well versed in the dark arts of statistics.

Mass produced vehicles are standardized so you don’t need a thousand tests of the same vehicle to see how it performs. Sometimes you just have to accept the 95% confidence interval and move on.

Your statements make it quite clear that you are not well versed in statistics at all.

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