Gas-in Electric (as opposed to Plug-in Hybrid)

[carl]

I was looking around for ideas on adding a generator to the car, and came across this https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/generator-to-charge-r1t-when-extra-range-needed.2057/ but nothing about incorporating a generator to the actual car so I figured I'd start a new thread (where I'm sure I'll get beat up )

This is something I've been thinking about for a while now since hearing the 400mile R1S doesn't have a date. As ironic or hypocritical (or counterintuitive or what ever you want to call it) it would be to add a gas generator to the car, I think it would totally be worth it at this stage in the EV technology. I would willingly give up my Frunk to be able to add some serous miles to my trip.

Blink came out with a gas powered generator (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32069151/blink-roadside-mobile-charger/) specifically designed for road side assistance that can add .5-1 mile of charge per minute for most cars. How great would it be to use that on a long trip!

So some quick (conservative) math. Let's say you're fully loaded with gear, people and this generator, and that get's you 275 miles on just EV. If it's setup so you could run the generator and charge while driving (yes some modification would be needed), the generator puts out 9.6kW and with the R1S having a 135kWh battery, it uses .49Wh per mile (again using 275miles) which means that the generator would add almost 1/3 of a mile per minute aka 20 miles per hour. Driving an average speed of 65mph (where on a long road trop so it's highway time), that would be 3.8 hour of drive time yielding an additional 76 miles which would allow for another 1.17 hours of driving for another 23 miles, and so on...

I'm drawing a blank on the equation to give us the total range that a generator would add in this scenario, but it's more than a 50% boost. (No to mention the ability to be able to put some gas in the car to let it charge for a few minutes incase you do go dead.)

The unknown factors here that would be nice to know is how many kWh you get per gallon, but according to their website it has a 9 hour run time which would equate to 88.2kWh. https://blinkcharging.com/products/mobile-charger/?locale=en. Even from a purely miles per gallon that the generator would create, it would be more efficient that most cars. If it uses a 5 gallon tank let's say, that's 17.64kWh per gallon = 36 miles per gallon (using my conservative 450Wh per mile). And if you're confused by that, it's because with a generator this is very little waisted energy compared to a car engine.

This is doing what Fisker originally did with their first "electric" car, Karma. They essentially used a gas engine to power a generator to charge the batteries for the electric motors. In my case here, for ALL your daily driving which is 98% of travel you could be be a fully plugin electric and when you needed some extra range you would use the gas generator for more miles. It's the total opposite of a Plug-in-Hybrid, it's a Gas-in-Electric.

I'm looking forward to going electric, but when we go on a trip, I'll easily drive 350-400 miles without stopping, and going backcountry for an extended period also has me worried.
Thoughts? Would anyone else want this?

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[crashmtb]

No

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

What you're describing is basically a sequential diesel electric hybrid (as opposed to a parallel) where a generator charges a small battery or capacitor, which then powers a fully electric drivetrain. A parallel system is more of a traditional hybrid where you have a small battery powered motor that augments a limited gas engine.

I have considered this as a conversion project for my Jeep as it might be easier than adding battery packs, but as a way to power a purpose built EV I don't think it makes sense honestly.

 

[carl]

What you're describing is basically a sequential diesel electric hybrid (as opposed to a parallel) where a generator charges a small battery or capacitor, which then powers a fully electric drivetrain. A parallel system is more of a traditional hybrid where you have a small battery powered motor that augments a limited gas engine.

I have considered this as a conversion project for my Jeep as it might be easier than adding battery packs, but as a way to power a purpose built EV I don't think it makes sense honestly.

It could even be at a much smaller scale/power output, but enough to be able to add some miles while driving, emergency situations, and when spending longer periods of time off grid. I get that the circumstances were a bit extreme, and not something I would be doing, but watching Long Way Up their biggest struggle was getting a charge.

I haven't had an electric car yet, so maybe I'm just overthinking the range anxiety I keep hearing about.

 

[yizzung]

I get that the circumstances were a bit extreme, and not something I would be doing, but watching Long Way Up their biggest struggle was getting a charge. I haven't had an electric car yet, so maybe I'm just overthinking the range anxiety I keep hearing about.

Unless you are planning to drive your Rivian to Patagonia, yes you are way overthinking this.

Even in that movie, those guys averaged like 150 miles per day in Central/South America due to limitations in charging but immediately started averaging 300 as soon as they crossed the border into the US. (There were plenty of locations in that series where even a gas station was nowhere in site for hours. The truck drivers down there presumably have diesel range anxiety.)

If you're really hoping to drive for eight or ten hours without stopping, then probably don't consider an EV. Otherwise, maybe break your trip in half, stop where a charger is present, take a well-deserved bathroom break, have a cup of coffee, and get back on the road.

If you are really, really trying to go way off-grid, it seems pretty extreme to think you're going to drive without stopping on some unpaved BLM road for 300+ miles without seeing so much as a 110v lamp socket somewhere along the way. But if you plan to head that far off the grid, get a Toyota.

 

[carl]

I guess the other thing that I didn't bring up is that we are looking at getting a trailer as well with our R1S, and so far there are no figures on the range with any sort of trailer load, just that it can tow 7,500lbs.

That brings up another idea! A self-powered RV trailer. Throw some electric motors on the trailer axel and a bunch of batteries, and the power needed from the truck to tow would be much less.

 

[Scott]

Unless you are planning to drive your Rivian to Patagonia, yes you are way overthinking this.

Even in that movie, those guys averaged like 150 miles per day in Central/South America due to limitations in charging but immediately started averaging 300 as soon as they crossed the border into the US. (There were plenty of locations in that series where even a gas station was nowhere in site for hours. The truck drivers down there presumably have diesel range anxiety.)

If you're really hoping to drive for eight or ten hours without stopping, then probably don't consider an EV. Otherwise, maybe break your trip in half, stop where a charger is present, take a well-deserved bathroom break, have a cup of coffee, and get back on the road.

If you are really, really trying to go way off-grid, it seems pretty extreme to think you're going to drive without stopping on some unpaved BLM road for 300+ miles without seeing so much as a 110v lamp socket somewhere along the way. But if you plan to head that far off the grid, get a Toyota.

This hits the nail in the head. I recently switched one of our 2 vehicles to electric and realized range anxiety made no sense for most people. Let's take your average driver with a longish (but not crazy) commute of 50 miles round trip a day. Plus a couple of road trips a year. For normal driving, at 25 mpg, you are filling up every 1.5 weeks, or roughly 30 times a year. Let's say you spent 5 minutes per fill up for those 30 visits. That is 150 minutes. Switch to electric with an at home charger and those 150 minutes go to 0 minutes.

Now for the 3 times a year you need to drive more than 250 miles in a day, or aren't ending the day at an at home charger then let's say your "fill up" time goes from 5 to 35 minutes for that charge. That is 90 minutes spent "extra" because of the electric car.

Add the two together and your electric car saved you 60 minutes over the course of the year. Yes I realize that is a silly comparison as often times those bi weekly 5 minute fill ups don't impact your day, and being bored at a charger when you are on vacation for 30 minutes is annoying, but it is still good to realize that overall, the number of times the vehicles max range is a factor for most people is very small.

Now obviously, anyone who drives a LOONG time every day, needs the electric car to take them places with no charging infrastructure frequently, or takes weekend trips while towing something every weekend can totally ignore the above. An EV might just not be for you with the current tech / infrastructure. The main point being is that accepting some mild inconvenience a handful of times a year is largely offset by the daily convenience if the range covers your normal days drive.

 

[carl]

@Scott
Well explained, thanks. On a daily basis I wouldn't be worried, it's those longer trips from Phoenix to Durango which would only be a few times a year. And yes adding a longer stop there wouldn't be that big of a deal. The only other concern then would be wait times at a supercharger station. I know they are slowly but surely popping up in more places, but have you had any issues on road trips where you had to wait more than 30 minutes just to get access?

 

[Temerarius]

Unless you really need to drive for 600+ miles in a day with no breaks, this makes no sense.

I personally like to eat lunch or at least go pee once in a 600 mile trek...

@Scott
The only other concern then would be wait times at a supercharger station. I know they are slowly but surely popping up in more places, but have you had any issues on road trips where you had to wait more than 30 minutes just to get access?

Nope. At least as a Tesla, I have not (not for a SuperCharger). For L2's in the public is a crapfest. If it's in a popular spot, your mileage may vary, but it's usually a knife fight to get one. However, I do most of my charging at either a Tesla SuperCharger or a destination charger at the hotel/restaurant while traveling.

I can't speak for EA or such though on if lines/wait times apply there.

 

[yizzung]

This hits the nail in the head. I recently switched one of our 2 vehicles to electric and realized range anxiety made no sense for most people. Let's take your average driver with a longish (but not crazy) commute of 50 miles round trip a day. Plus a couple of road trips a year. For normal driving, at 25 mpg, you are filling up every 1.5 weeks, or roughly 30 times a year. Let's say you spent 5 minutes per fill up for those 30 visits. That is 150 minutes. Switch to electric with an at home charger and those 150 minutes go to 0 minutes.

Now for the 3 times a year you need to drive more than 250 miles in a day, or aren't ending the day at an at home charger then let's say your "fill up" time goes from 5 to 35 minutes for that charge. That is 90 minutes spent "extra" because of the electric car.

Add the two together and your electric car saved you 60 minutes over the course of the year. Yes I realize that is a silly comparison as often times those bi weekly 5 minute fill ups don't impact your day, and being bored at a charger when you are on vacation for 30 minutes is annoying, but it is still good to realize that overall, the number of times the vehicles max range is a factor for most people is very small.

Now obviously, anyone who drives a LOONG time every day, needs the electric car to take them places with no charging infrastructure frequently, or takes weekend trips while towing something every weekend can totally ignore the above. An EV might just not be for you with the current tech / infrastructure. The main point being is that accepting some mild inconvenience a handful of times a year is largely offset by the daily convenience if the range covers your normal days drive.

Yeah, I think this is pretty spot on. I just finished driving from Colorado to California after having done the inverse four months prior. I could probably have driven for 5-6 hours total if I were willing to let the tank approach actual empty before each refuel but realistically needed to stop for gas more frequently than that. Plus, my bladder (and the dogs' bladders) each have their own capacity limitations...

YMMV, as the saying goes, but for me personally I think this inconvenience will be pretty rare.

 

[Scott]

@Scott
I know they are slowly but surely popping up in more places, but have you had any issues on road trips where you had to wait more than 30 minutes just to get access?

I have only had the EV a month, and mostly charge at home. So no problems yet.

 

[SANZC02]

@Scott
Well explained, thanks. On a daily basis I wouldn't be worried, it's those longer trips from Phoenix to Durango which would only be a few times a year. And yes adding a longer stop there wouldn't be that big of a deal. The only other concern then would be wait times at a supercharger station. I know they are slowly but surely popping up in more places, but have you had any issues on road trips where you had to wait more than 30 minutes just to get access?

You can run into wait times at some stations, especially in more dense areas with a lot of EVs such as Southern California. There have been times I have had to wait for a super charger to open up here before I could start charging.

Super Chargers tend to have a lot of chargers in some of the busier locations. As the infrastructure builds out for other networks, it is possible that between chargers being out of service and others being busy, you may need to wait for a charger to open up. It has never been a big problem though and wait times have been minimal.

 

[carl]

Yeah, I think this is pretty spot on. I just finished driving from Colorado to California after having done the inverse four months prior. I could probably have driven for 5-6 hours total if I were willing to let the tank approach actual empty before each refuel but realistically needed to stop for gas more frequently than that. Plus, my bladder (and the dogs' bladders) each have their own capacity limitations...

YMMV, as the saying goes, but for me personally I think this inconvenience will be pretty rare.

Haha, yeah. When we know we have a long drive we just go for it to make it as quick as possible. Yes, adding two 30-45 minute stops to a 10 hour drive isn't that big of a deal, but we have found with the kids, that if we stop for more than a bathroom break, they tent to be much moodier once back in the car.
I totally get the arguments of braking up really long drives into a few days, but that creates another hassle. I guess this is just the cost of getting the latest technology when it's new.

@SANZC02 only problem here though is waiting for the Rivian L3 charging infrastructure to mature. Again, part of being an early adapter.

Sorry I didn't mean to come across as negative, just trying to prep for my R1S that I've been more than excited for.

 

[Scott]

Haha, yeah. When we know we have a long drive we just go for it to make it as quick as possible. Yes, adding two 30-45 minute stops to a 10 hour drive isn't that big of a deal, but we have found with the kids, that if we stop for more than a bathroom break, they tent to be much moodier once back in the car.
I totally get the arguments of braking up really long drives into a few days, but that creates another hassle. I guess this is just the cost of getting the latest technology when it's new.

@SANZC02 only problem here though is waiting for the Rivian L3 charging infrastructure to mature. Again, part of being an early adapter.

Sorry I didn't mean to come across as negative, just trying to prep for my R1S that I've been more than excited for.

Alternative approach. I have a friend who has a smaller around town car he loves. He does 1 or 2 really long road trips a year with the family and he just rents a huge vehicle to haul everything for those 2 trips. I understand not wanting to do that approach, but it isn't totally insane.

 

[SeaGeo]

I guess the other thing that I didn't bring up is that we are looking at getting a trailer as well with our R1S, and so far there are no figures on the range with any sort of trailer load, just that it can tow 7,500lbs.

That brings up another idea! A self-powered RV trailer. Throw some electric motors on the trailer axel and a bunch of batteries, and the power needed from the truck to tow would be much less.

Rivian has estimated up to about 50% range reduction for towing. That obviously varies by trailer. A little aero teardrop isn't going to do that to you, but a big box that's heavy could.

Ford is putting a lot of effort into this with the F-150 and it sounds like they'll have stored trailer profiles that the vehicle calibrates to and then adjust to the weight.

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