R2 using Large Die Castings / Gigacasting - reveals RJ

[RealBillNye]

You do know that tongue weight doesn't equate to towing capacity, right?

It should! The tongue still needs to be able to support what you are towing!

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[SPITmadFIRE]

hey this thread seems fun, any room for one more? why hasn't anyone yell-asked me for my engineering credentials??

 

[BigSkies]

I don't work in the industry, but isn't heavy reliance on aluminum a concern for tariffs?

My simplistic understanding of the industry is that steel can be sourced from within the US at reasonably competitive costs, while major aluminum production isn't coming into the US under any circumstances.

A 25% price hike on those pieces is gonna add up quick.

 

[thrill]

I don't work in the industry, but isn't heavy reliance on aluminum a concern for tariffs?

My simplistic understanding of the industry is that steel can be sourced from within the US at reasonably competitive costs, while major aluminum production isn't coming into the US under any circumstances.

A 25% price hike on those pieces is gonna add up quick.

A quarter of steel in the US is imported, and about half of the aluminum, and the majority of both come from our friends up north - so it won't get cheaper over the next few years.

 

[pricedm]

Casting is fine on vehicles that are light duty like the R2 with a towing capacity that hopefully reaches 5K lbs. Doing it on trucks intended for actually towing stuff is beyond stupid. Thin casted aluminum cannot support towing which is why the CT keeps getting its ass end torn off.

First, to OP's question: the cast "frame" is a significant benefit. Tesla Model Y uses it with significant benefit. Glad to see Rivian following with the use of this technology: it makes a better vehicle.

@Donald Stanfield , you're wrong on this one. My buddy Mongo posted some relevant info-- bottom line, towing more than the capacity of any vehicle can lead to issues. No, the Cybertruck isn't beyond stupid for its towing capacity.

"SAE J684 calls out a minimum test load of 50% trailer GVWR for the trailer tongue. So 5,500 pounds for Cybertruck [ED: Cybertruck has 11k towing weight and 1,100 tongue weight capacities].

For the vehicle side, there are three tests with vertical (and longitudinal) components, two use 15% of trailer GVWR, the third is 47% GVWR + 480 lbs. For an 11k trailer that's 5,650 pounds.

European test spec (1994L0020 — EN — 01.01.2007 — 002.001) gives more background into the numbers. Basically, it's representing forces produced by the worst case inertia of the trailer (all mass at points furthest from the axle(s)) and an approximation of the vehicle vertical acceleration profile based on suspension type. Air suspension has a lower requirement than non.
Their test involves simultaneously application of sinusoidal waveforms with 1 to 3% frequency difference to generate force vectors in all directions. Vertical loading is static tongue (10% trailer max) plus/minus 60% of the V value.
For an 30 foot 11k trailer with 1,100 tongue and 4 foot of extra tongue (L=17ft, X=26, C=9,900 lbs, S=1,100 converted to metric:
L=5.16m, X=7.92, C=4491kg, S=499kg
V = 25.4kN (using worst case non air suspension)
Peak vertical loading is then 4.9 + 0.6*25.4 = 20.1 kN or 4,520 pounds force."

 

[Donald Stanfield]

First, to OP's question: the cast "frame" is a significant benefit. Tesla Model Y uses it with significant benefit. Glad to see Rivian following with the use of this technology: it makes a better vehicle.

@Donald Stanfield , you're wrong on this one. My buddy Mongo posted some relevant info-- bottom line, towing more than the capacity of any vehicle can lead to issues. No, the Cybertruck isn't beyond stupid for its towing capacity.

"SAE J684 calls out a minimum test load of 50% trailer GVWR for the trailer tongue. So 5,500 pounds for Cybertruck [ED: Cybertruck has 11k towing weight and 1,100 tongue weight capacities].

For the vehicle side, there are three tests with vertical (and longitudinal) components, two use 15% of trailer GVWR, the third is 47% GVWR + 480 lbs. For an 11k trailer that's 5,650 pounds.

European test spec (1994L0020 — EN — 01.01.2007 — 002.001) gives more background into the numbers. Basically, it's representing forces produced by the worst case inertia of the trailer (all mass at points furthest from the axle(s)) and an approximation of the vehicle vertical acceleration profile based on suspension type. Air suspension has a lower requirement than non.
Their test involves simultaneously application of sinusoidal waveforms with 1 to 3% frequency difference to generate force vectors in all directions. Vertical loading is static tongue (10% trailer max) plus/minus 60% of the V value.
For an 30 foot 11k trailer with 1,100 tongue and 4 foot of extra tongue (L=17ft, X=26, C=9,900 lbs, S=1,100 converted to metric:
L=5.16m, X=7.92, C=4491kg, S=499kg
V = 25.4kN (using worst case non air suspension)
Peak vertical loading is then 4.9 + 0.6*25.4 = 20.1 kN or 4,520 pounds force."

I'll tell you what I'm not wrong on, that people keep tearing the ass end off the CT. People aren't doing that with any other tow vehicle. Go figure.

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

Doesn’t seemed to have affected Model Y sales, repairs, insurance rates

I was going to say the same thing. Many manufacturers are moving toward this after Tesla implemented it and proved its value in reducing cost without compromising safety, even Toyota.

Say what you will about Elon (and there’s a lot to say), but Tesla’s engineers and designers are the badasses moving the industry forward. Rivian’s too. VW wouldn’t be paying them billions for their drivetrain tech and software if it wasn’t groundbreaking.

 

[Ostrichsak]

It should! The tongue still needs to be able to support what you are towing!

And it does all of the way up to the stated limits of 1,100lbs tongue weight & 11,000 tow weight limit. These two numbers are right in line with every other pick-up truck in it's class. Tesla just does it with a lighter metal that costs less and is less prone to oxidation.

This situation is no different than someone 250lbs buying a ladder rated at 125lbs because it was cheaper to buy and easier to carry due to being lighter and then shaming the manufacturer online when it broke because he climbed up onto it wearing 50lbs worth of tools & gear and then had his 250lb buddy climb up the other side wearing 50lbs worth of tools/gear and both started jumping up and down on it until it failed all while filming for his YouTube channel. You gonna call Werner a bunch of idiots too? The weight limits were clearly published. Nothing in these videos has "revealed" anything so I'm not sure why people who lack critical thinking seem to believe that it tells us anything that the manufacturer didn't tell us already.

This is no different. The part failed at nearly 10x the stress that the engineers rated it for when the goal was to make it fail. There's nothing negligent about this despite the narrative that the Tesla haters are trying to push. This isn't even advanced diabolical tactics we're talking about here either. Don't be the lemming that falls for it.

I'll tell you what I'm not wrong on, that people keep tearing the ass end off the CT. People aren't doing that with any other tow vehicle. Go figure.

So... two YouTube videos set out to create catastrophic failure to get clicks and that's represents all of 'em to you, huh?

This all reminds me of being a kid in the 80's and wondering why grown adults could be so dumb as to argue about Ford vs. Chevy. Sure there's differences but neither one is a PoS comparitively. What a stupid debate and even an 8-year-old could see it.

"No, mah Rivian is better because it doesn't get it's ass torn out all the time!" -Redneck #2

Meanwhile nobody else cares because they can apply critical thinking to see that one or two examples of intentional abuse do not a statistical significance make.

To be fair, if the topic is pick-up truck hitches, at least the Tesla engineers put the proper distance between the ball and the bumper. That's one that Rivian engineers couldn't seem to figure out.

At least as consumers we have a 100% flawless R1T by Rivian since the Cybertruck is such an unusable PoS. Praise be!

 

[Donald Stanfield]

And it does all of the way up to the stated limits of 1,100lbs tongue weight & 11,000 tow weight limit. These two numbers are right in line with every other pick-up truck in it's class. Tesla just does it with a lighter metal that costs less and is less prone to oxidation.

This situation is no different than someone 250lbs buying a ladder rated at 125lbs because it was cheaper to buy and easier to carry due to being lighter and then shaming the manufacturer online when it broke because he climbed up onto it wearing 50lbs worth of tools & gear and then had his 250lb buddy climb up the other side wearing 50lbs worth of tools/gear and both started jumping up and down on it until it failed all while filming for his YouTube channel. You gonna call Werner a bunch of idiots too? The weight limits were clearly published. Nothing in these videos has "revealed" anything so I'm not sure why people who lack critical thinking seem to believe that it tells us anything that the manufacturer didn't tell us already.

This is no different. The part failed at nearly 10x the stress that the engineers rated it for when the goal was to make it fail. There's nothing negligent about this despite the narrative that the Tesla haters are trying to push. This isn't even advanced diabolical tactics we're talking about here either. Don't be the lemming that falls for it.



So... two YouTube videos set out to create catastrophic failure to get clicks and that's represents all of 'em to you, huh?

This all reminds me of being a kid in the 80's and wondering why grown adults could be so dumb as to argue about Ford vs. Chevy. Sure there's differences but neither one is a PoS comparitively. What a stupid debate and even an 8-year-old could see it.

"No, mah Rivian is better because it doesn't get it's ass torn out all the time!" -Redneck #2

Meanwhile nobody else cares because they can apply critical thinking to see that one or two examples of intentional abuse do not a statistical significance make.

To be fair, if the topic is pick-up truck hitches, at least the Tesla engineers put the proper distance between the ball and the bumper. That's one that Rivian engineers couldn't seem to figure out.

At least as consumers we have a 100% flawless R1T by Rivian since the Cybertruck is such an unusable PoS. Praise be!

Show me a video for clicks of any other manufacturer's truck having the ass end ripped off while towing.

 

[Zoidz]

I don't work in the industry, but isn't heavy reliance on aluminum a concern for tariffs?

My simplistic understanding of the industry is that steel can be sourced from within the US at reasonably competitive costs, while major aluminum production isn't coming into the US under any circumstances.

A 25% price hike on those pieces is gonna add up quick.

Yes. But a bigger concern is range, which is in part a function of weight, so it's unlikely we will see steel replacing aluminum in EVs because of tariff increases.

 

[Ostrichsak]

Show me a video for clicks of any other manufacturer's truck having the ass end ripped off while towing.

You can only show me two and it was obviously abusive and intentional. These aren't "proof" of anything that you seem to think it is.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

You can only show me two and it was obviously abusive and intentional. These aren't "proof" of anything that you seem to think it is.

That's two more than I've seen with any other vehicle

 

[Riviot]

I don't work in the industry, but isn't heavy reliance on aluminum a concern for tariffs?

My simplistic understanding of the industry is that steel can be sourced from within the US at reasonably competitive costs, while major aluminum production isn't coming into the US under any circumstances.

A 25% price hike on those pieces is gonna add up quick.

? Don't wake the admin! This thread will get locked down for politics.

But to answer your question from a business/supply perspective based on basic business understanding and conversations with business owners who rely heavily on aluminum...

The overall cost to produce won't increase by 25% because the raw material increases that much. It depends on how much the aluminum cost weighs on raw materials. Overhead and labor are often 50%+ of cost, so even if the product is pure aluminum it's only 12.5% more expensive to produce. I like the COGM examples below.

I would venture to guess it'll only raise raw materials cost by $200 per vehicle. (If you think Rivian has more aluminum than my estimate, change the multiplier and provide your source. I couldn't find how much aluminum goes into a Rivian)

$2700/tonne (metric) = $1.22/lb * 600lbs/Rivian * 25% increase = $184

https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/...recedented-growth-in-automotive-applications/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/496185/pounds-of-aluminum-per-car-in-north-america/

https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/aluminum-price

Edit to add: recent conversation with my brother in law, who's business is heavily reliant on aluminum for framing. He made a good point that raw costs will only raise his COGM by like $10/job, but he can use "tariffs" as a justification for raising his prices even more. Most people don't realize the true impact it'll have, so he can raise bids by 10% and they'll think "oh thank God, it isn't 25%!"

 

[Ostrichsak]

That's two more than I've seen with any other vehicle

Just because videos weren't made doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't happen considering almost all full size pick-up trucks have the same weight rating for their hitch. That's the point. This is stupid because it's meaningless and people like you want to act like it has some sort of value, which it doesn't. It literally doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

If you learned something from that video... welcome to the club. Pretty much everyone else processing oxygen already know that an item engineered to handle a certain weight will eventually fail when you push it beyond it's engineered limits.

This is no different for Ford, GM, Rivian or Cybertruck. Coincidentally enough, they also all have about the same weight limit rating too so it doesn't prove that CT is a PoS although you seem to think it's undeniable proof of something. The ONLY way this is a story or news is if it failed at 900lbs which is 200lbs below it's stated weight limit.

In fact, prove me wrong. Stage the same video with your precious Rivian. After all... it's built SO much better than the Cybertruck, right? Prove it. Post up the video of your Rivian exceeding the 10,000lbs by some crazy number and you'll easily make a million dollars from YouTube views especially right now.

Like I already said, it doesn't matter though. Even when your Rivian crumbles in the same manner at about the same weight because they will ALL fail at or around this same point... which is nearly 10x the limit stated. This is why it's meaningless.

 

[Riviot]

Just because videos weren't made doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't happen considering almost all full size pick-up trucks have the same weight rating for their hitch. That's the point. This is stupid because it's meaningless and people like you want to act like it has some sort of value, which it doesn't. It literally doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

If you learned something from that video... welcome to the club. Pretty much everyone else processing oxygen already know that an item engineered to handle a certain weight will eventually fail when you push it beyond it's engineered limits.

This is no different for Ford, GM, Rivian or Cybertruck. Coincidentally enough, they also all have about the same weight limit rating too so it doesn't prove that CT is a PoS although you seem to think it's undeniable proof of something. The ONLY way this is a story or news is if it failed at 900lbs which is 200lbs below it's stated weight limit.

In fact, prove me wrong. Stage the same video with your precious Rivian. After all... it's built SO much better than the Cybertruck, right? Prove it. Post up the video of your Rivian exceeding the 10,000lbs by some crazy number and you'll easily make a million dollars from YouTube views especially right now.

Like I already said, it doesn't matter though. Even when your Rivian crumbles in the same manner at about the same weight because they will ALL fail at or around this same point... which is nearly 10x the limit stated. This is why it's meaningless.

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