Anti-EV agenda

[jrmbadger]

What about reducing/removing subsidies on gasoline?

I would much rather see a tax on polluting vehicles that is added at the time of purchase or lease. Put it right on the Monroney sticker. Those taxes could then be used to offset to the oil company subsidies.

The trouble with gas price increases is that they usually hurt low income persons who may not be able to afford moving to an EV. If you tax them at the time of purchase, consumers can then make the choice to continue to buy gas-guzzlers, buy more efficient cars, or to instead try an EV.

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[ElGuano]

There's no perfect solution that accounts for every use case and exception. But from a policy position, a higher tax on gas and push for more clean energy makes sense. We're already paying taxes on gas, it could be progressively stepped up over time to ease the immediate hit while providing an incentive for more affordable BEVs.

That doesn't seem like the near-term trajectory in the US for sure, but as long as we're talking agendas...

 

[BTOR]

That sounds nice on paper but what about those of us who live where EVs don’t work, or have a line of work not suitable for an EV, or aren’t wealthy enough to be able to swap their reliable 30 year old Camry for an EV?

Well, EV's should work everywhere an ICE works. I don't know the exact numbers but most everyone in the USA has electrical service and that is all an EV requires. Gas prices all across western Europe are ~ €1.25/liter or ~ $5.25/gal and they seem to manage just fine. Most of it being government taxes. There are still plenty of ICE vehicles in Europe. Not everyone in Europe is wealthy. Many drive older vehicles. Many have jobs that are not suitable for an EV, yet they manage just fine. No one said it will be easy. It might mean making a few lifestyle adjustments. Sure, it won't work for everyone but what in life does?

Here are a few suggestions....

• Public transportation
• train
• bicycle
• drive less
• walking

 

[skyguyscott]

Well, EV's should work everywhere an ICE works. I don't know the exact numbers but most everyone in the USA has electrical service and that is all an EV requires. Gas prices all across western Europe are ~ €1.25/liter or ~ $5.25/gal and they seem to manage just fine. Most of it being government taxes. There are still plenty of ICE vehicles in Europe. Not everyone in Europe is wealthy. Many drive older vehicles. Many have jobs that are not suitable for an EV, yet they manage just fine. No one said it will be easy. It might mean making a few lifestyle adjustments. Sure, it won't work for everyone but what in life does?

Here are a few suggestions....

• Public transportation
• train
• bicycle
• drive less
• walking

Everyone always forgets Alaska.

 

[CO-Ed]

My take is that with the removal of EV subsidies, infrastructure incentives, misinformation, et al but subsidies kept for ICE vehicles (oil subsidies and lack of any cost to the long-term damage done by burning fossil fuels), we don't have a level playing field to make this judgement.

From the OP:

Rivian’s rapid loss of thousands of would‑be customers did not come from a botched product launch or a viral quality scandal. It came from a policy cliff. When a key federal tax incentive vanished, a fragile demand story around premium electric trucks and SUVs was suddenly exposed, and the company’s delivery numbers show just how quickly that shock rippled through its order book.

If incentives and subsidies were spread equally between EVs and ICE, how much does that change the discussion (realizing that purely hypothetical)?

I agree with @ElGuano that we need to start slowly balancing the playing field to more accurately answer questions like this.

 

[Thedude]

Well, EV's should work everywhere an ICE works. I don't know the exact numbers but most everyone in the USA has electrical service and that is all an EV requires. Gas prices all across western Europe are ~ €1.25/liter or ~ $5.25/gal and they seem to manage just fine. Most of it being government taxes. There are still plenty of ICE vehicles in Europe. Not everyone in Europe is wealthy. Many drive older vehicles. Many have jobs that are not suitable for an EV, yet they manage just fine. No one said it will be easy. It might mean making a few lifestyle adjustments. Sure, it won't work for everyone but what in life does?

Here are a few suggestions....

• Public transportation
• train
• bicycle
• drive less
• walking

As mentioned, not in Alaska or even in some more remote areas of the lower 48. If I want to go camp, hunt or fish up here I’m taking a generator and a bunch of gas with me. That’s exacerbated by the lack of trains and public transportation in most of the US as well as distances that don’t work well with bicycles or walking. In much of Europe there is functional public transportation and short travel distances so those are viable options.

 

[Weck]

Hoodies aren't proper riding gear. I'll head out there and give it a good flogging for him.

I do a fair amount of long distance touring. The scenic places I like to ride are remote and unlikely to have chargers. I don't see myself riding an EV bike in my lifetime. I'd like to be wrong on that because I'm guessing EV bikes eventually will be superior to ICE bikes in every way.

I have a Energica Experia, which actually works as a EV tourer, provided your not of the mindset to just slab all day.

It will do 2 plus hours between charges two up on 55 mph two lanes (at 60-65 mph), which is around 130-140 miles. I run up to my cabin with my daughter on the back, which is 112 miles, with enough cushion to deal with rain/cold/wind.

Fast, quiet, point and shoot, no vibes, really nice to ride.

Has DCFC, but only at 20 ish kW (21kWh batt). Only shortcoming is L2 is only 3kW, why they didn't up that to 6 or 9kw is odd.

Unfortunately they went bankrupt, primarily due to VC mismanagement, as the order books were good. They have been bought by an interest out of Singapore that is reviving the company... They even reached out to me as an owner to schedule a zoom call... So I'm optimistic.

 

[mkhuffman]

I have a Energica Experia, which actually works as a EV tourer, provided your not of the mindset to just slab all day.

It will do 2 plus hours between charges two up on 55 mph two lanes (at 60-65 mph), which is around 130-140 miles. I run up to my cabin with my daughter on the back, which is 112 miles, with enough cushion to deal with rain/cold/wind.

Fast, quiet, point and shoot, no vibes, really nice to ride.

Has DCFC, but only at 20 ish kW (21kWh batt). Only shortcoming is L2 is only 3kW, why they didn't up that to 6 or 9kw is odd.

Unfortunately they went bankrupt, primarily due to VC mismanagement, as the order books were good. They have been bought by an interest out of Singapore that is reviving the company... They even reached out to me as an owner to schedule a zoom call... So I'm optimistic.

Post pictures of your Experia! I bet a lot of people have no idea what it looks like. I don't.

 

[Weck]

Post pictures of your Experia! I bet a lot of people have no idea what it looks like. I don't.

Sure, here ya go.

 

[Time2Roll]

What about reducing/removing subsidies on gasoline?

Last I looked into it there really is not much there.

 

[Thedude]

I have a Energica Experia, which actually works as a EV tourer, provided your not of the mindset to just slab all day.

It will do 2 plus hours between charges two up on 55 mph two lanes (at 60-65 mph), which is around 130-140 miles. I run up to my cabin with my daughter on the back, which is 112 miles, with enough cushion to deal with rain/cold/wind.

Fast, quiet, point and shoot, no vibes, really nice to ride.

Has DCFC, but only at 20 ish kW (21kWh batt). Only shortcoming is L2 is only 3kW, why they didn't up that to 6 or 9kw is odd.

Unfortunately they went bankrupt, primarily due to VC mismanagement, as the order books were good. They have been bought by an interest out of Singapore that is reviving the company... They even reached out to me as an owner to schedule a zoom call... So I'm optimistic.

I was really hoping they’d stick around and keep improving. The one I test rode was a definite improvement from a Zero I rode.

 

[Supratachophobia]

Soooon... https://www.donutlab.com/battery/

30% increase in energy density over the current Samsung cells in our cars now. Certainly nothing to balk at.

 

[Time2Roll]

Put the Donut in my next phone and we will see what goes.

 

[Rade]

It's larger than the EV segment of the auto industry - it's either the car manufacturers (including Rivian) not wanting / unable to release an affordable vehicle and/or using the current administrations anti-green stance to terminate their EV programs. Part of this goes back to a lesson they learned during the 2020 pandemic when the "chip shortage!" apparently decimated the industry, and they could ONLY put the available chips in the PREMIUM line of vehicles.

I love that, now FIVE YEARS AFTER the pandemic, car manufactures are once again crying "CHIP SHORTAGE!!!" as they roll out incredibly over-bloated, over priced crap. $120k for a new Ram pick-up, anyone? "Oh, but we are cancelling our EV line up because, you know... EV!!!" So damn glad I didn't invest in a Ford Lightning!

You just watch - once the new Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, Slate or Rivian R3S (among many others) fully roll out, consumers will begin ejecting their ICE vehicles to get into an EV.

Oh, and by the way, for EV's under $54,000, my lovely state of Rhode Island still maintains an EV incentive program offering a checkie-weckie-my-turtledove for up to $2,500 (new) and $1,500 (used). So there may not be a Federal tax credit, but there is incentive to buy, if people are willing to, like, stop listening to idiot industry pundits, do some frigging research and apply.

 

[fresca10]

I think it just changes the calculus for whether you should buy one or not. People buy vehicles for all sorts of reasons. The tax credit is just one thing, and if you're buying your second one (and it's not a lease) then the credit would have no bearing on your decision since you wouldn't qualify for it again. Other EV headwinds:

• Gasoline prices are lower than they have been in recent years, less incentive to switch to electric to save money on fuel cost.
• More hybrids are available that further reduce the day-to-day operating cost differences between gas and EV.
• Electricity prices as a whole are increasing, outpacing inflation.
• Many municipalities are now charging hundreds of additional dollars to register an EV vs. a gas vehicle, also reducing the TCO gap.
• Battery/powertrain warranty on mainstream EVs are now ending, and a lot of people realize just how expensive these components are to replace when they're not under warranty.
• Insurance costs for EVs are up due to their incredible repair prices (see above) and quick insurance adjuster judgement about component failure.
• Service times for EVs can be very long (not just Rivian)
• EV novelty may be wearing off. It is for me. I've driven an EV for over 6 years. It's still a great driving experience, but the actual thrill and uniqueness of ownership has subsided.
• EVs are largely unrepairable by end users. This makes them less attractive to people buying them out of warranty.
• Lack of 3rd party repair shops mean expensive trips to the dealer/service center are sometimes the only way to keep an EV on the road.

None of these are really silver bullets that can kill EVs, but just a few of them are enough to drive a potential buyer away. I will probably not buy another Rivian due to price, (lack of) repairability, and diminishing novelty, but I haven't personally written EVs off altogether. I am excited for smaller, more afforadable EVs like the Slate and Ford's newer small truck.

Interesting comments here. Thank you for sharing. I love my EV, but understand the lack of uniqueness. My concern is the comment on warranty and not being repairable. I have a lease up in April and was considering purchasing and staying in the vehicle, and the warranty comment has me concerned about that now. Maybe I should look at new EV (I love how they drive) or hybrid, which would fit me driving requirements better.

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