Battery size: Gen 1 vs Gen 2

[E_Monkey]

These are the battery capacities. How can they maintain the same battery ranges as gen1 Large for Gen 2 Large? Battery is down 16% and folks on Gen2s seem to be getting 2.5 miles per KWh. That’s about a 270 range when taken down to zero. That’s a decent variance over published range from Rivian. Someone have more data on gen 2 efficiency with a Large pack because it seems the Large pack has been crippled in range. Max is the same so seems that are doing a bit of a cash grab and steering folks to go cheaper battery (better margin?) or most expensive battery.

Gen 2
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-pack-is-unexpectedly-complicated-236013.html

• A 92.5-kWh STANDARD pack with a maximum charging speed of 200 kW;
• A 109.4-kWh LARGE pack with a maximum charging speed of 220 kW;
• A 141.5-kWh MAX pack with a maximum charging speed of 220 kW.

Gen 1

An electric vehicle’s “usable capacity” is the portion of the battery dedicated to vehicle propulsion and cabin comfort – think driving, heating and air conditioning.

• Standard: 106 kWh
• Standard+: 121 kWh
• Large: 131 kWh
• Max: 141 kWh

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[AYAYRON]

the entire truck is more efficient from the more efficient motors, to less wiring, less ECU's all require less HV battery size, oh and the battery composition is different too.

 

[E_Monkey]

As far as I can see what was released, the Enduro motors are exactly the same. Battery comp is the same they only added LGP to standard. But large and max are the same.

Zonal network was a manufacturing dollar save not efficiency on power consumption. Heat pump doesn’t matter during summer. Yes saves for winter but if you don’t use it doesn’t matter.

Do you have a gen2?

 

[WorldComposting]

I'm speculating but part of this might have been due to the heat pump they added. This might be lowering the amount of power being used to cool/heat the cabin, batteries, and motors. Also any other cooling that might have been needed for electronics.

 

[E_Monkey]

Heat pumps just for heating. Wouldn’t do anything for cooling.

But dropping the battery size by 16% and equaling same range is a massive efficiency gain.

If that is real their marketing dept should be blasting out how much efficient their gen 2 is. But they aren’t. Feels off and incongruous. Why not talk about a good thing unless it isn’t.

 

[Dark-Fx]

As far as I can see what was released, the Enduro motors are exactly the same. Battery comp is the same they only added LGP to standard. But large and max are the same.

Zonal network was a manufacturing dollar save not efficiency on power consumption. Heat pump doesn’t matter during summer. Yes saves for winter but if you don’t use it doesn’t matter.

Do you have a gen2?

Network change absolutely had an increase in energy efficiency.

As far as battery sizes go, Rivian doesn't have EPA testing data done on gen 2 large pack, so it's not really possible to make a fair and direct comparison today. Usable capacity could up, and estimated range could go down.

 

[E_Monkey]

No way usable capacity is up on the Large when maximum ceiling is significantly down. Mathematically impossible.

Given the smaller large battery, efficiency would have to be 3.1-3.3 miles per KWh to get to the same 350 mile EPA range. Gen 1 posts here were pretty all clustered around 2.2-2.4 miles per. I have only seen one person post on a Gen and they stated they are getting 2.5 miles per KWh. More efficient but not enough to make up for a huge cut in battery top line capacity/size. Efficient up, range on large is going to be way down unless someone has 3.0 miles per efficiency over the course of driving conditions average.

I like the Gen 2 changes but trying to understand that range will come down hard on the Large pack. Without more data it seems undeniable.

If the efficiency story was that good wouldn’t Rivian market the heck out of that?

 

[Dark-Fx]

No way usable capacity is up on the Large when maximum ceiling is significantly down. Mathematically impossible.

Up from the claimed capacity. All of the battery info for Gen 2 large is Rivian estimated currently.

 

[Trandall]

I know a little off topic for this thread but I believe many people will be disappointed when they see the small marginal improvement from heat pump efficiency. I just hope the new heat pumps aren't loud as hell and put out tepid air when it's -10F. My current R1T is able to adequately heat the cabin and battery when they are very cold. I might be the only one who likes the resistive heat. I'm happy with the range and climate control (although it could be quieter) of my Gen 1 that remains to be seen with Gen 2. Bi-directional heat pumps are substantially more complex than resistive heating elements and are not magical as it seems some are hoping.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I just hope the new heat pumps aren't loud as hell and put out tepid air when it's -10F. My current R1T is able to adequately heat the cabin and battery when they are very cold

Rivian seems to have gone against the grain for this, because they still have a resistive heater for the HV coolant. I would be surprised to find out it performs worse in extreme cold than Gen 1.

 

[Trandall]

Rivian seems to have gone against the grain for this, because they still have a resistive heater for the HV coolant. I would be surprised to find out it performs worse in extreme cold than Gen 1.

So I'm assuming a single bi-direction heat pump is used for cooling heating the cabin and for cooling the battery and an additional resistive heater for the battery only then?
I will be curious to see a breakdown of how the thermal system on gen 2 operate. It is tricky since their are times when you need to heat the battery and cool the cabin and vice-versa as well as times when both need robust heating or cooling. We already know the large size of Rivian packs are not optimally cooled.

 

[pc500]

I know a little off topic for this thread but I believe many people will be disappointed when they see the small marginal improvement from heat pump efficiency. I just hope the new heat pumps aren't loud as hell and put out tepid air when it's -10F. My current R1T is able to adequately heat the cabin and battery when they are very cold. I might be the only one who likes the resistive heat. I'm happy with the range and climate control (although it could be quieter) of my Gen 1 that remains to be seen with Gen 2. Bi-directional heat pumps are substantially more complex than resistive heating elements and are not magical as it seems some are hoping.

It's quieter. It's not mounted on the firewall anymore.

Yes, heat pumps were more useful in slow vehicle like a leaf that spend lots of hours.

It'll help environmentally with efficiency in town on your daily commute, but not as much on the highway, when you care about range.

It's useful for campers. You can now sleep in the vehicle overnight without a huge penality.

 

[Budman]

No way usable capacity is up on the Large when maximum ceiling is significantly down. Mathematically impossible.

Given the smaller large battery, efficiency would have to be 3.1-3.3 miles per KWh to get to the same 350 mile EPA range. Gen 1 posts here were pretty all clustered around 2.2-2.4 miles per. I have only seen one person post on a Gen and they stated they are getting 2.5 miles per KWh. More efficient but not enough to make up for a huge cut in battery top line capacity/size. Efficient up, range on large is going to be way down unless someone has 3.0 miles per efficiency over the course of driving conditions average.

I like the Gen 2 changes but trying to understand that range will come down hard on the Large pack. Without more data it seems undeniable.

If the efficiency story was that good wouldn’t Rivian market the heck out of that?

Efficiency is not a single number. It varies greatly with the speed and temperature. The EPA number is not the Highway range number people often compare to.

I can get an efficiency at 3.0 mi/kwh on my R1T Quad driving on a mix of interstate, rural highway and city roads that is more comparable to the EPA estimate than a 80 mph interstate run.

I’ve posted the chart below a number of times and get some push back on it but the data is very real and matches the EPA estimate well.

 

[E_Monkey]

You would one of the rare few hitting 3 on a quad. Also any single day point can provide support for a min-max.

I would be happy to get long road trip anecdotal data vs someone’s peak example. My question on efficiency is more to understand range of the gen 2 battery not for efficiency sake.

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