Doug DeMuro: 2022 GMC Hummer EV

[Friscorays]

Bummer about March 1, 2022.

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[RivRev]

I am liking the Hummer EV more and more. They just got a lot more right imo than the Rivian.
I just hate the size and weight and bulky-ness. I hope Rivian is taking note of all of the Hummer features.

I want the best of both worlds....all of the Hummer EV features and interior with the Rivian body and size and efficiency.

To name a few things that I think (just my opinion) that The Hummer has Rivian beat on: a tire pressure gauge (lol), tire pressure notification via honk, physical buttons and knobs, dynamic physical switches, removeable roof panels, customizable configuration of display, more and better cameras, physical regen braking adjuster, rear window feature, frunk without lip, all window down button, multi-purpose tailgate!, and cupholders (lol)...the Hummer just seems like a way more practical and useful vehicle because of features like these. The actual vehicle though.... (size, range, batteries, price, etc.) I don't love.

The Rivian has a better body, exterior design, gear tunnel, on-board air, and battery efficiency. And price?
Hummer seems to win in most everything else.


I wish the R1T had a few more of the features that the Hummer. That would be the ideal vehicle. Rivian, take note!

 

[DaveA]

I am liking the Hummer EV more and more. They just got a lot more right imo than the Rivian.
I just hate the size and weight and bulky-ness. I hope Rivian is taking note of all of the Hummer features.

I want the best of both worlds....all of the Hummer EV features and interior with the Rivian body and size and efficiency.

To name a few things that I think (just my opinion) that The Hummer has Rivian beat on: a tire pressure gauge (lol), tire pressure notification via honk, physical buttons and knobs, dynamic physical switches, removeable roof panels, customizable configuration of display, more and better cameras, physical regen braking adjuster, rear window feature, frunk without lip, all window down button, multi-purpose tailgate!, and cupholders (lol)...the Hummer just seems like a way more practical and useful vehicle because of features like these. The actual vehicle though.... (size, range, batteries, price, etc.) I don't love.

The Rivian has a better body, exterior design, gear tunnel, on-board air, and battery efficiency. And price?
Hummer seems to win in most everything else.


I wish the R1T had a few more of the features that the Hummer. That would be the ideal vehicle. Rivian, take note!

So, to add all the same features as the Hummer, you need to pony up another 30-40k... Don't think Rivian wants to build 6 figure vehicles, tbh.

 

[Monkey]

Yesterday, GM started customer deliveries of the Hummer EV.


First vehicle sale fetched 2.5 million at auction.


79k model deliveries don't start until 2024. 89k model deliveries in 2023. 2022 deliveries look to be limited to 100k plus models.

All Edition 1 orders for now... I'm an Edition Reservation holder and was told that I can expect mine Winter '22. Like Rivian, it's going to take them a while to ramp this up and it's not like GM is new at this.

The $2.5M for VIN #001 at Barrett-Jackson was also a tax write-off charity fundraiser for those who want to play that game can flex a bit. So not a direct correlation to market value. I'm sure we'll have a better picture of what some people are willing to spend as some of the first trucks get flipped on the open market.

Once they're through all the Edition 1 orders, they will invite the EV3X crowd, which can be optioned the same as Edition 1, with the exception of the special badge and Lunar White exterior paint. Then EV2X and EV2 models... They expect to be through all the pre-orders by the end of '2023 when the SUV goes into production and they can continue delivering new Hummer EV truck orders while cranking on the SUV pre-orders.

 

[Monkey]

I am liking the Hummer EV more and more. They just got a lot more right imo than the Rivian.
I just hate the size and weight and bulky-ness. I hope Rivian is taking note of all of the Hummer features.

Hummer missed a few features too, some that Rivian has...

To name a few things that I think (just my opinion) that The Hummer has Rivian beat on: a tire pressure gauge (lol), tire pressure notification via honk, physical buttons and knobs, dynamic physical switches, removeable roof panels, customizable configuration of display, more and better cameras, physical regen braking adjuster, rear window feature, frunk without lip, all window down button, multi-purpose tailgate!, and cupholders (lol)...the Hummer just seems like a way more practical and useful vehicle because of features like these. The actual vehicle though.... (size, range, batteries, price, etc.) I don't love.

Rivian has individual tire pressure readouts, it just wasn't on the main screen when Doug reviewed that pre-production model. Doug also missed all the various drive modes and off-road modes. Which is too bad. OTOH, the R1T handled his off-road hill test exceptionally well for being in all-purpose mode. But he missed out on the suspension and torque adjustments, hill-hold and similar 1-pedal off-road functionality to the Hummer.

For me, the Hummer features I'd love to see on the R1T are the trail cameras, frunk with no lip and that tailgate. On the Hummer, I'd really like to see a functional way to carry a spare tire, the gear tunnel and onboard air compressor.

Cargo limits between the two are similar, Rivian with the advantage, but I'm wondering how that changes with the max pack R1T or the EV3X Hummer without the battery upgrade for WTF Mode and the extra ~30 miles of range. Rivian wins on towing with it's 11,000lbs vs. Hummer's 7500lbs.

Both Hummer and R1T have similar water fording abilities and both have crazy good off-road specs/abilities. Hummer only has more ground clearance than R1T when put in Extract Mode and R1T's smaller overall size will have an advantage on many trails.

I'm not deciding what to do with my Edition 1 Hummer reservation until I know better when I would get it. That said, I'll probably pass on it due to a few factors, but for me the predominant two factors would be price and its low towing capacity.

 

[AndroidAppBundle]

I agree about scaling up. All of us have a hard time accepting a few facts of reality, our wishful thinking gets in the way.

1. Supply is a problem in general
2. Supply is a larger problem in emerging growth industries
3. Making a net-new vehicle model takes time
4. Making a net-new vehicle model at 10% of the factories potential total output takes even more time
5. Making a net-new vehicle model at 80% of the factories potential total output takes way more time

Manufacturers are doing what they do best; meeting customer demand, and working hardest to meet customer demand in products with the highest margins and price tags. This means - fully loaded models ship first. This means economies of scale are a ways off, operating at scale is even further off.

GM is not exactly new to EV manufacturing; they make the Volt and Bolt. They got existing suppliers and relationships. GM has a few choices right now; make more $130k Hummers and less $38k EV sedans, make more 130k Hummers and no $38k EV sedans.

It is safe to assume there is more margin on a $130k EV truck, than a $38k EV sedan; and yet deliveries of a sub-100k model are a 2024 discussion. What does this tell us about the supply chain specifically for EV’s?

Bloomberg analyst was quoted saying that with the recent news of Tesla citing supply disruptions in their earnings, everyone should pause; if Tesla (of all companies in the EV space, being as vertically integrated as they are) is having supply issues, then you can only imagine how bad it is at Rivian, GM, Ford, etc.

Tesla appears to have the gold standard for EV supply chain and manufacturing. It isn’t that others like Rivian don’t have great potential, they just aren’t there yet.

Tesla has such a massive first mover advantage right now, that I am not sure how this is going to impact the EV movement. I know I am not the only person who isn’t going to wait 2-3-4 years for a vehicle, and the idea of buying a Tesla - simply because they have the ability to deliver a vehicle that isn’t $80k…or 130k, is more enticing everyday.

IMO, Rivian is going to really test the patience of EV buyers. Those EV diehards like most of us on here - we watch every move in the market, every new model, everything hitting dealer showrooms, everything being delivered - we basically know. People with money to burn are going to be able to get their toys quicker.

We can diss on the aspects of the Hummer EV that we don’t like, but we all know Rivian has similar dumb limitations or design choices. At the end of the day; R1S/R1T/Hummer EV are hella capable, hella innovative…

All Edition 1 orders for now... I'm an Edition Reservation holder and was told that I can expect mine Winter '22. Like Rivian, it's going to take them a while to ramp this up and it's not like GM is new at this.

The $2.5M for VIN #001 at Barrett-Jackson was also a tax write-off charity fundraiser for those who want to play that game can flex a bit. So not a direct correlation to market value. I'm sure we'll have a better picture of what some people are willing to spend as some of the first trucks get flipped on the open market.

Once they're through all the Edition 1 orders, they will invite the EV3X crowd, which can be optioned the same as Edition 1, with the exception of the special badge and Lunar White exterior paint. Then EV2X and EV2 models... They expect to be through all the pre-orders by the end of '2023 when the SUV goes into production and they can continue delivering new Hummer EV truck orders while cranking on the SUV pre-orders.

 

[Zybane]

I have pre-orders in for the Rivian R1S, Cybertruck and Hummer EV SUV. My use case in retirement living in Colorado will be: going to the ski resorts, an hours drive from my remote house into town each way, and camping in the vehicle on trails and trailheads up in the mountains. My vehicle will be charged by a large solar array at my house mainly. Really only road trips will I have to use an EV charging station.

Cybertruck was the first order.
Pros:
1. I like to off-road and having a stainless steel exterior that basically requires zero maintenance and no clear-coat to get scratched up is amazing.
2. "Armor glass" means more security from break ins while out on the trail and no yearly Colorado broken windshields.
3. I'm kinda a "prepper" type guy,; it has the most range and security for a SHTF situation.
4. Tesla is the furthest along with regard to "autopilot/FSD" setups.
5. Easiest charging on road trips with Superchargers (currently have a Model Y Performance).
6. Will likely easily have the lowest coefficient of drag and longest range (I have Tri-Motor reserved which will likely be converted into a quad-motor). Speculated 200 kWh+ battery pack.
7. In an emergency, I want to be able to have the vehicle be a home battery storage. There has to be sufficient power output via 120/240v to re-charge my home batteries if needed. The Tesla appears to have the greatest capacity for that from what I've read. Although exact specs unknown as of now.
4. 4-motor drive now should give great off-roading ability, although it will have the worst break-over.

Cons:
1. It's by far the longest, making it the worst for tight trails. Although the rear steer will help some.
2. By looking at recent drone photo's., there appears to be NO cabin-to-vault (bed) pass through. This unfortunately is basically a deal-breaker for me and my camping setup. I don't want to get a truck bed camper. I want to be able to camp with the vehicles climate control and just be able to drive away and not have to get out of the vehicle to camp.
3. May not have ventilated seats like my Y. That would suck.
4. Windshield wiper looks to be laughable, but to counter that, looks like removable side mirror may be a thing.


Rivian R1S (5-seater):
Pros:
1. Apparently the largest interior cargo volume of all three. (CT's pickup bed doesn't count for my use).
2. Decent range with Max Pack, although timing and how the R1S may be affected by the Max Pack is unknown. Apparently around 480 Wh/mi.
3. Air compressor on board for off-roading.
4. Even at a beastly 7K+ lbs, it may actually be the lightest.
5. Looks the most "traditional" and would blend in. Also sort of a con.
6. 4-motor off-roading.
7. Not locked out of my preferred color (Forest Green).

Cons:
1. Pretty exterior to easily scratch up off-roading and clean.
2. Only 120v/12 AMP plug. While that's quite low, it still may suffice to slowly charge my home batteries in an emergency.
3. No off-road/underbelly cameras. It would really be nice not to have spotters, as that duty gets old really fast.
4. No Tesla SC network (that change details still forthcoming).
5. Standard windshield looks easy to crack in Colorado.


Hummer EV3X SUV:
Pros:
1. Removable roof. Really is a great feature for nice days. Extends comping mood possibilities.
2. Off-road cameras galore.
3. Has the most interesting UI run off the Unreal Engine. Looks like something out of Battlestar Galactica. I know someone posted it looks cheesy, but IMO it's cooler than the standard boring black text on white background you get with Tesla/Rivian. I like unique things.
4. Best looking exterior. Especially in the Moonshot Green satin paint, once again I like unique things.
5. Shortest length + 4-wheel steer may make it the most nimble off-road. Although it's much wider than the others, so some of that may be negated.
6. Supposedly has a 240v outlet possibility. From GM: "Hummer EV SUV can jump charge another electric vehicle at 240v/25A/6kW and power a variety of equipment and accessories at 120v/25A/3kW.”

Cons:
1. 9K+ lbs. Like geez, really? Just to put that into perspective, that is heavier than a dually diesel full size pickup. That's just crazy inefficient weight. Worse for off-roading too. Sink in soft surfaces. I suspect GM went with the battery "modules" so that they can easily be replaced if one goes bad and they don't have to replace the whole battery pack. But that means two "layers" of battery storage, leading to crazy weight. Because of this, the battery also is noticeably thicker than Tesla's and Rivian's.
2. Range; with the 20 module pack and 176 kWh, including the off-road pack, we are talking like 270 mile range. That is just, bad. Like bad bad. Like 700 Wh/mi once you take into account battery reserve. Would be pretty terrible road trip vehicle and charging stop duration much longer and electricity cost noticeably higher.
3. No Tesla SC network (that change details still forthcoming).
4. Being restricted from the Moonshot Green satin paint because of being a regular EV3X order and not Edition 1 pisses me off. If I'm spending $110K+ on a vehicle, I want it exactly how I want it. The other plain colors don't look as good on the vehicle.
5. Pretty exterior to easily scratch up off-roading and clean.
6. Standard windshield looks easy to crack in Colorado.



Those are my basic thoughts for my needs. The Rivian is the safe bet. Out of 10, this is how I rank the likelihood of purchase:
Rivian R1S: 9
Hummer EV SUV: 6
Tesla CT: 3

Anything I've missed when it comes to off-road/camping/road trips?

 

[kylealden]

So, if they're planning to do any sort of garage door opener, it'll be an IoT internet controled situation (presumably Alexa based, since amazon)... which means it won't work if your car doesn't have an internet connection, which it won't have if you don't pay for their truck as a service plan.

[citation needed]

Seriously folks - maybe this will be the way it turns out, in which case I'll be a little grouchy (but not that grouchy, since I'll probably be paying for data for the hotspot feature, Spotify, etc.). But it's far from a sure thing.

There's at least a chance that there is a homelink-style option built in from the old manuals. If not, it way well be an aftermarket accessory (ala Tesla). If not, it may well be an Alexa capability enabled by default (subscription or no). And yes, there's a chance it will be a subscription feature. But let's not jump to conclusions.

Among other things, there are plenty of other internet-connected features which we know aren't subscription-gated, like basic nav. And some that probably will, like Spotify and maybe traffic. And of course we don't know what the subscription tiers are (is there a difference between data and "Rivian membership"? Almost certainly.)

But it helps literally nobody to spread FUD based on your unconfirmed speculation because you got mad at a line in an IPO filing. Let's wait for facts, please.

(Also - I don't believe any product managers at Rivian are dumb enough to think that "garage door opener" will help them move subscriptions. If they got rid of HomeLink, it was for exactly the same reason as Tesla: To reduce the BOM, minimize waste and SKU complexity (not all owners have garages), and protect margins, so they can sell this thing for a reasonable profit. They will sell the subscription via premium media, membership perks, charging discounts, etc.)

 

[PAFDenver]

I am liking the Hummer EV more and more. They just got a lot more right imo than the Rivian.
I just hate the size and weight and bulky-ness. I hope Rivian is taking note of all of the Hummer features.

I want the best of both worlds....all of the Hummer EV features and interior with the Rivian body and size and efficiency.

To name a few things that I think (just my opinion) that The Hummer has Rivian beat on: a tire pressure gauge (lol), tire pressure notification via honk, physical buttons and knobs, dynamic physical switches, removeable roof panels, customizable configuration of display, more and better cameras, physical regen braking adjuster, rear window feature, frunk without lip, all window down button, multi-purpose tailgate!, and cupholders (lol)...the Hummer just seems like a way more practical and useful vehicle because of features like these. The actual vehicle though.... (size, range, batteries, price, etc.) I don't love.

The Rivian has a better body, exterior design, gear tunnel, on-board air, and battery efficiency. And price?
Hummer seems to win in most everything else.


I wish the R1T had a few more of the features that the Hummer. That would be the ideal vehicle. Rivian, take note!

I also am struggling choosing between the R1T, F150 Lightning & Hummer EV. I have my own spreadsheet of pros and cons for each - which I suspect looks quite a bit like yours. At first I found it frustrating to have to make such a hard choice. The last car I bought was a Model S when they first started shipping and it was easy because there was nothing else even close to it. So the choice was to buy it or not.
At first my choice for a BEV truck was simple too. The R1T was the only one close to shipping - everything else was no more than renderings. Or they had fatal flaws that removed them from the choice.
But now it is a more normal decision since there are multiple players in the space. Some are still basically just renderings or are due out in 2024 or later and therefore (for me) uninteresting. But those 3 are all now viable options and all have things I would love to integrate into my perfect electric truck. That's what is typical for buying ICE cars, it's a hard trade off of features between a large selection of options.
And that's really a great thing! It shows that BEVs are now becoming more normal and a significant market - or are headed that way. So why it's tougher for me, I also see it as a reason to celebrate!

 

[cardad]

What are you talking about? The Hummer EV test mules basically lived in Moab for several months this year. Rivian did a few publicity stunts around town but other than the Ford Bronco people the Hummer EV was more or less being tested off-road in a way that was pretty conspicuous.

Hummer EV will come stock with 35s and allow 37s without modification if I recall correctly. That kind of capability clearly isn't what Rivian's target demographic is into even though Rivian did try pretty hard to show off the capability with the stock AT setup.

Jeep has pretty securely corraled a large number of the "green" off-road crowd with the Wrangler 4xe so Rivian and these others will have a tough time trying to sell a much more expensive range-limited option. At around $60k post tax-credit the money you save on your Rubicon 4xe will allow you to modify it to your heart's content while still going 350+ miles and maybe 1 tank of fuel every 500-2000 miles. If you look at how dismal Land Rover sales are you can understand how competitive and challenging it is to win the $70k+ vehicle market.

Jeep, Ford, and Tesla are probably going to win this (off road EV) race and Rivian will be lucky to hang on for dear life once Toyota enters the game.

The Hummer can only tow 7,500lbs vs. 11,000, but that's still somewhat useable.

I don't see how you can claim the Hummer might be a better off roader when there is zero footage or first hand accounts of it even being driven off road. But, I'd argue the smaller size and four motors will make the Rivian hands down the better off roader.

The interior space doesn't appear materially different between the Hummer and the R1. The leg room certainly isn't.

I'm fairly confident that Rivian will end up selling many multiples more R1's than GM sells Hummers. GM didn't change much from what made the previous Hummer crash and burn, but I don't think they care, they wanted an attention grabber before they started making real vehicles. Their volume vehicle will be the Sierra/Silverado EVs, but they still don't understand what they're doing.

Basically, I think the Hummer is an insult to the entire premise behind electric vehicles. It gets worse mileage than an ICE sedan and the breakeven carbon emissions is longer than the useful life of the vehicle.

 

[cardad]

The problem here is that you think $85k is the price you will pay or a sustainable price for them to sell at. We'll see. My bet is that Rivian is underpricing and their whole gender discrimination lawsuit points to that idea as the whistleblower in question wanted to discuss the issue of pricing and people at the company did not want to talk about it. Rivian has yet to disclose their gross margins BTW. It's like night and day when you look at a very comparable vehicle in the Lucid first editions coming in at $170k+ and a R1S/T coming in at half the price.

So I would trust the numbers coming from Ford and GM where their margins are traditionally thinner and expectations for transparency are much higher than whatever is coming out of Rivian. They're already planning for future scale when they haven't even reached anywhere close to their peak production capacity in their one and only factory and claim to have supply chain issues. These are bad signs because they've added supply chain issues on top of whatever else they have going wrong. Meanwhile, Ford and Chevy have had experienced scale with Mach-E and Bolt and plan to improve on those learning experiences with their next generation facilities.

Hummer EV 1st Ed. 114k (+possible dealer markup)

Max Pack R1T 85k

30k price difference

That's a 35% price premium over the R1T.

That's in line with comparing a fully loaded Maverick to a fully loaded F-150. Doesn't seem like a real apples to apples kind of review.

And again the optics of Doug posting this video so abruptly on the heals of the MT Truck of the Year news, with his demeanor and ultimate Doug scoring being a little bit off from what he's done in the past (R1T as an example) all under the direct supervision of GM on a prototype car? Come on... Doesn't sit well with me.

Needless to say Motor Trend had a team of reviewers, people who are actually professionals in the industry and fans alike, as opposed to Doug Demuro (who I do respect). They came to a different conclusion, and I honestly think that they did a more thorough review and analysis of the vehicles free of any overriding supervision of General Motors staff.

I'm not saying the Hummer EV isn't a cool vehicle, but let's be honest, General Motors can't even give you any real details on what the entry-level, and other trim tiers will be. The thought of dropping $80,000 for a super stripped down Hummer that only goes 235 miles seems like a joke considering the top-of-the-line R1T is 85k.

Golden Calipers say's it all.

Sorry GM

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