EV's more expensive to charge than ICE Counterparts?

[Joseph D]

Oh, my friend. Those of us stuck with PGE are jealous. And those in SacMUD service areas laugh at all of us (at 11c/kWh off peak).

Best case in a PGE territory: 27c off-peak (12a-3p). It’s about the best you can get. Thankfully, I live somewhere that A/C is not required in the home, so my usage, esp with PV, is pretty low for general household stuff. But 3 EVs make an impact.

Still cheaper than gas, tho. By a long-shot, even at peak rates.

Yikes, my summer peak rate is 32.5c/kwh and non-summer peak rate is 15.5c/kwh.
Also to make you more jealous is that we get an extra 1.5c off of off-peak rates (from midnight to 6am) when we have an electric vehicle registered in our accounts bringing our off peak rates even lower.

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[VSG]

Yes, a really shoddy analysis.

If someone want to do it correctly, another thing to consider is that on road trips, you can choose a spot to overnight where you can charge for free. That gives you one free "tank" a day, so even when you're paying the high DCFC charger rates (high compared to home charging) the total you pay per day is only a fraction of that.

My last roadtrip we averaged 400 miles/day which was consistently two stops a day for charging plus free charging overnight, so we only paid for 2/3 of the electrons ... even less when we were able to use a RAN charger ...

When's the last time you got a free tank of gasoline?

Also, my road trips tend to take me to less populated places that have higher-than-normal gas prices. So, just like EVs, I pay more for fueling when I'm away from home.

 

[riviansmoke]

Talk about jealous….
Here are my rates:

Luckily it has gone down as of 8/1, but it was ~$0.35/kWh and now is moving to ~$0.24/kWh.

One thing that is good is the solar payback, we just installed solar in March and with these rates and usage, it’ll take less than 5 years to payback.

I would love to have the options that most of you have though. I looked into TOU, but NH obviously doesn’t want people on those plans with their pricing. So I tend to turn on the AC, run my dryer and charge my car during the peak times just out of principle. Here are the TOU rates for reference.

In NH Solar makes financial sense, but EVs are less beneficial. That said, I won’t go back to an ICE vehicle.

 

[SANZC02]

Talk about jealous….
Here are my rates:

Luckily it has gone down as of 8/1, but it was ~$0.35/kWh and now is moving to ~$0.24/kWh.

One thing that is good is the solar payback, we just installed solar in March and with these rates and usage, it’ll take less than 5 years to payback.

I would love to have the options that most of you have though. I looked into TOU, but NH obviously doesn’t want people on those plans with their pricing. So I tend to turn on the AC, run my dryer and charge my car during the peak times just out of principle. Here are the TOU rates for reference.

In NH Solar makes financial sense, but EVs are less beneficial. That said, I won’t go back to an ICE vehicle.

If they have net metering where you are TOU might be worth it. I added a battery to my solar system, I run the house off the battery during peak time and send any solar produced at that time back to the grid at the higher rates. It is close to 3-1 credit compared to off-peak. Almost doubled my NEM credits compared to last year with the battery.

 

[riviansmoke]

If they have net metering where you are TOU might be worth it. I added a battery to my solar system, I run the house off the battery during peak time and send any solar produced at that time back to the grid at the higher rates. It is close to 3-1 credit compared to off-peak. Almost doubled my NEM credits compared to last year with the battery.

That’s a good point, I didn’t install a powerwall with the solar because we already had a whole house generator. Our usage is fairly high, so we’d need atleast 2-3 powerwalls to make it through the peak times. 2 powerwalls would be $16k after the 30% tax break.

 

[Surferdude]

Where I am electricity is 42 cents/kWh and gas is 4.25/gallon. Assuming a Tacoma gets 19 mpg that's 22.4 cents per mile. And assuming Rivian gets 1.8 miles per kilowatt hour after including phantom drain, that comes out to 23.3 cents per mile. So a Rivian would be slightly more expensive to drive than a comparable gas truck. But since I have solar (and many others here do too), I prepaid my "gas" for the next 20 years or so. But if I was in a situation where I couldn't get solar (multi-story townhome, condo, etc) the savings is little to zero. Sure you can factor in the savings of gas vehicle maintenance over EV but based on my experience owning EVs and rapidly chewing through expensive tires, it all comes out a wash.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Sacramento, CA area here. I pay at off peak $.12/$.09 per Kwh during the summer/non-summer months, and on road trips $.35/Kwh at EA. Brings us to this spreadsheet I made on the spot because the math is very easy and leave it to news outlets to not bother to check for themselves.

Little to say its much cheaper than even my civic prior for my everyday driving, and cheaper than any other truck you would compare it to in everything else. This is not including other maintenance as others in this thread have already brought up.

Thanks for putting in the TRX/Raptor R in here. The Rivian is an 835HP super truck that walks away from both those vehicles and makes them look silly. Also has more capable towing as well. Comparing it to a Ranger or Tacoma or something simply isn't fair as nothing spec wise of either of those two matches to the Rivian.

It's important to match like for like and there are more electron efficient EV "trucks" coming down the pipeline that will get better efficiency and compare to the Ranger or Tacoma in towing and payload type performance probably still beating them in speed and greatly improving on costs for them.

The Rivian is the TRX or Raptor R of EV trucks so that's what it should be compared to if we want an apples to apples comparison and doing that it's not even in the same ballpark.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Where I am electricity is 42 cents/kWh and gas is 4.25/gallon. Assuming a Tacoma gets 19 mpg that's 22.4 cents per mile. And assuming Rivian gets 1.8 miles per kilowatt hour after including phantom drain, that comes out to 23.3 cents per mile. So a Rivian would be slightly more expensive to drive than a comparable gas truck. But since I have solar (and many others here do too), I prepaid my "gas" for the next 20 years or so. But if I was in a situation where I couldn't get solar (multi-story townhome, condo, etc) the savings is little to zero. Sure you can factor in the savings of gas vehicle maintenance over EV but based on my experience owning EVs and rapidly chewing through expensive tires, it all comes out a wash.

You can't compare a Rivian to a Tacoma fairly. That's like comparing a Prius to a Corvette and complaining the Prius gets better mileage. Performance is a huge factor, and when you go by that basis they aren't the same truck. If you just are comparing EV to ICE compare the Tacoma to a model Y or something.

If we aren't going to compare like for like vehicles then I would like to see an Aptera vs your Tacoma. I guess my point is it depends on where you feel these are alike in order to make your comparison. It's not in performance, towing capacity or payload. Off-roading I will concede.

 

[Surferdude]

You can't compare a Rivian to a Tacoma fairly. That's like comparing a Prius to a Corvette and complaining the Prius gets better mileage. Performance is a huge factor, and when you go by that basis they aren't the same truck. If you just are comparing EV to ICE compare the Tacoma to a model Y or something.

If we aren't going to compare like for like vehicles then I would like to see an Aptera vs your Tacoma. I guess my point is it depends on where you feel these are alike in order to make your comparison. It's not in performance, towing capacity or payload. Off-roading I will concede.

I'm pretty sure nobody is going to compare a Tacoma to a Model Y. Yes, the Rivian exceeds the Tacoma in almost all metrics while costing double the price. But when it comes to comparing operating costs (gas vs electric) people will generally compare vehicles of similar size, stature and function. I don't make the rules, this is just how people think. Ironically, Tacomas are actually very fuel inefficient for their size. If I compared a much larger Ford F-150 to a Rivian, the Rivian would cost even more to operate as the Ford has a combined efficiency of 20 mpg (vs 19 of the Tacoma). I don't think anyone would say it's fair to compare a full sized gas truck and a mid sized electric truck but doing so still puts the Rivian at a disadvantage in my geographic area.

I think it's important that depending on where you live and how you access your power, people understand an EV can cost the same or more to operate than a similar sized gas vehicle. While this isn't the case in most places, it's the case in many places. If solar isn't available in those places, you'd have to be sold on the other attributes usually present in EVs (ride comfort, quiet, less maintenance visits, faster acceleration, etc). Personally, the cost delta wouldn't make a difference to me as I enjoy the peace and quiet of an EV too much that I would pay a price premium to operate it.

 

[Mathme]

a 500 round trip from the SF Bay Area to Lake Tahoe and back cost me about $130 in gas (that's at about $5.50/gallon for Super Unleaded).

The Rivian costs about $30 currently as I home-charge at both locations and utilize the free RAN charging. Once that free charging goes away, it'll probably cost about $60-70.

When I got the truck I did the math and averaged my gas bill over the past 2.5 years in the ICE then compared the Rivian and it was about half the cost per year to drive the Rivian for how and where I drive.

 

[NY_Rob]

So many incorrect statements in the original post we need to break it down to three parts..

..if you have net metering, charging isn't free, because you'd otherwise be paid for those electrons.

Your summer over-production in many states gets put in your "solar bank" so in the winter when daylight hours are short and you consume more than you produce.. your utility draws excess kWh from your "solar bank" and you still get a zero dollar utility bill (or just a slight "grid connection" charge) even during the winter. My utility bill has been $14/month for the last 4.5yrs even with three EV's.

And then there's the cost of the solar system. ROI is typically 20-30 years, and panels are typically only good for 25 years, so you're only breaking even.

If your break-even is 20-30 yrs- you made a terrible deal on your system and did no homework before purchasing your system.
My original break-even on my system was 7.5yrs, but with recent utility rate increases.. it's now under 7yrs. I have 43 panels.

I like the idea of being able to charge after a natural disaster has knocked out electricity, though you could do the same thing with gallons of gas and a generator, albeit in a more polluting, louder way.

Grid tied systems don't work like that.. if the grid is down.. your grid-tied system is down as well to prevent energizing downed power lines and electrocuting utility workers during restoration operations.

 

[shap]

I'm pretty sure nobody is going to compare a Tacoma to a Model Y. Yes, the Rivian exceeds the Tacoma in almost all metrics while costing double the price. But when it comes to comparing operating costs (gas vs electric) people will generally compare vehicles of similar size, stature and function. I don't make the rules, this is just how people think. Ironically, Tacomas are actually very fuel inefficient for their size. If I compared a much larger Ford F-150 to a Rivian, the Rivian would cost even more to operate as the Ford has a combined efficiency of 20 mpg (vs 19 of the Tacoma). I don't think anyone would say it's fair to compare a full sized gas truck and a mid sized electric truck but doing so still puts the Rivian at a disadvantage in my geographic area.

I think it's important that depending on where you live and how you access your power, people understand an EV can cost the same or more to operate than a similar sized gas vehicle. While this isn't the case in most places, it's the case in many places. If solar isn't available in those places, you'd have to be sold on the other attributes usually present in EVs (ride comfort, quiet, less maintenance visits, faster acceleration, etc). Personally, the cost delta wouldn't make a difference to me as I enjoy the peace and quiet of an EV too much that I would pay a price premium to operate it.

I think the region is key when comparing the costs. If you charge at home, you definitely save money on gas. How much will depends on where you live (the price of electricity varies from 6c to 60c between states and utilities). As well as the price per gallon. If you do the road trip, that is another story, and the price can easily get to 70c per kWh. Which in many cases will be the same as any 20+ mpg car.

However, add to this yearly registration fee for EV ($200 in Texas), and accelerated tire wearing, you probably will pay more per mile than a good gasoline car (especially Hybrid) even when charging at home.

IMHO, owning EV is not an economical decision - it is fun, but overall you pay more or at least the same.

Here is the calculation for me, Austin, TX (I do not include any free charging - it is not correct for comparison as eventually, it will go away):

To charge R1T 21" wheels to drive 100 miles (41 kW) at home with Austin Energy (0.128c per kWh) - is 41kW * 0.128c = $5.25+$0.26 (5% lost of energy) = $5.51
To charge R1T to drive 100 miles at a public charger (EVGo) (0.49c per kWh) - is 41kW * 0.42c = $20.09 +$1 (5% lost of energy) = $21.09
The same size truck will use 5 gallons of 87-rated gasoline, with a current price of $3.3 in Austin: 5*3.3=$16.5

Public charging (especially privately owned Charge Point) can get up to $1 per 1 kW - and in this case, it will be twice+ more expensive than a gasoline car, aka $41 for 100 miles!

In general, for the majority of cases, using R1T for road-tripping will be more expensive than a gasoline car if you do not get a free charge in the hotel, etc.

 

[csharp]

So many incorrect statements in the original post we need to break it down to three parts..

Your summer over-production in many states gets put in your "solar bank" so in the winter when daylight hours are short and you consume more than you produce.. your utility draws excess kWh from your "solar bank" and you still get a zero dollar utility bill (or just a slight "grid connection" charge) even during the winter. My utility bill has been $14/month for the last 4.5yrs even with three EV's.


Grid tied systems don't work like that.. if the grid is down.. your grid-tied system is down as well to prevent energizing downed power lines and electrocuting utility workers during restoration operations.

You've also made a bunch of assumptions based on your exact scenario. 1. We don't have a "solar bank" where I live. They buy back any electricity you over produce, but don't bank it for later. 3. My house will still have power if the power is down. I flip a switch to cut the connection, but my house stays online with the solar production.

 

[brancky3]

I've had my truck for 7.5 months now and have charged a total of three times at home (estimated $20 total) and once on a road trip ($27.xx). Every other charge has been at work (free) or at my local RAN (free). Definitely not a typical scenario but I can confidently say these have been the cheapest 5,000 miles of any vehicle I've ever owned

 

[shap]

Well, it is like working for Shell - some can say they get gas almost for free

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