Gen2 with 21" inch wheels could break new range #s?

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

I recently saw a video claiming how the "3 peak snowflake" rating is utterly bogus, essentially it means the tire does at least 10% better than a 14" reference tire from the 1980s, and that its primary purpose is to be easy to pass and for tire companies to have another checkmark to sell to.

It is somewhat bogus. It's a set of standards the tire industry got together, agreed upon and paid $ for some graphic designer to come up with a graphic mark they can use for marketing. AFAIK, there is no independent lab or government agency testing, verifying and certifying each of the tires bearing the mark. Each manufacturer, via honor system, is expected to do their own testing to make sure they meet those standards (or risk being sued once found out, either by consumers or peers). Buy a tire from well-established brand that is 3PMSF, there's a good chance you are actually getting one that meet those standards. Buy a cheap generic bearing the mark... well, that tire is probably winking at you. Big brands have more to lose if sued and are more risk averse. Generic brands... the manufacturer is likely not even in this country and don't answer to our courts.

Sponsored

 

[B Digs]

Even that is a stretch, they're more All Weather tires. Jack of all trades, by @B Digs



I did a test of 20" staple wheels with aero inserts, no change.

I did a test of AS tires on 20" staple wheels, same tires on RAM 2363 wheels, and same diameter ATs on RAM 2363 (all with over 1k wear, so broken in). 2363s were more efficient, despite offset sticking it out .5" more.

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...ciency-comparison-ram-as-ram-at-oem-as.28080/

@Riviot, @UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan and @anthonysfl, I prefer to say the Rivian Goodyear is in a class by itself!

 

[LL75]

@Riviot, @UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan and @anthonysfl, I prefer to say the Rivian Goodyear is in a class by itself!

The ATS class

 

[anthonysfl]

If you get a 20" aero wheel then its ultimate range. All open design rims that are available cause turbulence that = resistance. on the 21's with aero off its a 5-10 mile range penalty. If you went with a forged aero 20 and Defenders you would have the ultimate setup.

The ultimate wheel was the 20” from Martian Wheels. Super light and completely flat. Unfortunately they don’t make it anymore.

 

[LL75]

If you get a 20" aero wheel then its ultimate range. All open design rims that are available cause turbulence that = resistance. on the 21's with aero off its a 5-10 mile range penalty. If you went with a forged aero 20 and Defenders you would have the ultimate setup.

Michelin defender ltx m/2? I don't think that tire is more efficient than pirelli as+3 or the general grabber hts60.

 

[Eric9610]

Michelin defender ltx m/2? I don't think that tire is more efficient than pirelli as+3 or the general grabber hts60.

Michelin defender ltx m/2 on the 20 is almost 7LBS lighter than the factory setup per wheel. The generals are not compliant for the car and most shops will not install them. Not to mention the performance on the defenders are far better in every condition compared to other comparable tires at a marginal cost delta. The Defenders even outperformed 3 peaks rated tires in snow conditions. I have them in the 60 size and after 5k miles have not even used 1/32 of tread. I should get about 40-60k miles out of a set.

 

[LL75]

Michelin defender ltx m/2 on the 20 is almost 7LBS lighter than the factory setup per wheel. The generals are not compliant for the car and most shops will not install them. Not to mention the performance on the defenders are far better in every condition compared to other comparable tires at a marginal cost delta. The Defenders even outperformed 3 peaks rated tires in snow conditions. I have them in the 60 size and after 5k miles have not even used 1/32 of tread. I should get about 40-60k miles out of a set.

At least google the general grabber HTS60 before you can compare. I'm running that at the moment and it weight 34.5 lbs instead of the defender 42 lbs. Both have 116 load index. The reason that the defender would last longer because of 820 tread vs. 620 for the grabber. The traction for the defender is "B" vs "A" for the grabber. do some searching in this forum and you will understand better.

General grabber hts60 is the lightest tire with 116 load index.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...TS60XLV2&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

 

[Eric9610]

At least google the general grabber HTS60 before you can compare. I'm running that at the moment and it weight 34.5 lbs instead of the defender 42 lbs. Both have 116 load index. The reason that the defender would last longer because of 820 tread vs. 620 for the grabber. The traction for the defender is "B" vs "A" for the grabber. do some searching in this forum and you will understand better.

General grabber hts60 is the lightest tire with 116 load index.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...TS60XLV2&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

You do realize the HST60 does not meet the speed rating set as default by manufacturer right??? If you get in an accident or something happens and you have non compliant tires on your car your insurance will not cover you. You will be liable 100%. This is why most places will not install on the Rivian it’s a liability risk.

 

[LL75]

You do realize the HST60 does not meet the speed rating set as default by manufacturer right??? If you get in an accident or something happens and you have non compliant tires on your car your insurance will not cover you. You will be liable 100%. This is why most places will not install on the Rivian it’s a liability risk.

Discount tires installed my general grabbers. Load rating 116T (speed rating of 118 mph) which is plenty. Discount tires are very strict and will not install anything under 116 load rating. They care more about the load than speed !!!/ Also learn about car insurance liablity before posting. That are millions of people running different type of tires that are different than OEMs.

 

[Eric9610]

Discount tires installed my general grabbers. Load rating 116T (speed rating of 118 mph) which is plenty. Discount tires are very strict and will not install anything under 116 load rating. They care more about the load than speed !!!/ Also learn about car insurance liablity before posting. That are millions of people running different type of tires that are different than OEMs.

It’s ok to be wrong about liability

 

[ebarke]

The most efficient Rivian setup is 20’s on 275/60/20 all season tires. My R1S on 20’s with 275/60/20 AS tires is 7% more efficient than my R1T with 21’s.

what wheel/tire combo are you using? Looking to possibly make the change on my R1T once my 21's are worn out.

 

[tps5352]

...if Rivian kept the 21in wheel as an option, could we see a range approaching 450miles on Max Pack?...all the 21in wheel sets being sold for cheap, if they fit into Gen2 cars, we could all get to 450+ range?

... all things being equal, a smaller wheel with a higher tire (for the same total diameter) will be better for range?

...If you went with a forged aero 20 and Defenders you would have the ultimate setup.

Based on the (so many!) posts (see small bibliography at the end of this post, here) about wheel/tires (on this Forum site alone), I currently plan to (later this year) consider a 2025/2026 Max-battery-equipped R1S with 20" wheels* (hence the All-Terrain Package) and (immediately?) switch out the AT tires (and either save or sell those) for a Rivian-appropriate highway/touring 34" tire in order to attempt to achieve (a) the best riding comfort (via the higher profile tires) and (b) maximum range. I'm considering the Dual Max version, but I like the Tri Max (and would sacrifice range) for its standard and cost-efficient set of included features (that I would probably purchase anyway for the Dual Max). "Conserve" mode apparently 'eats' front tires if you use it all the time; but for occasional longer trips it might push the range up towards that achieved by the Dual Max.

With the (bewildering) number of posts about tires and range, and with the many OEM and aftermarket options for wheels and tires, one might think that someone would have posted an article establishing the clear model-version/mode/wheel/tire combination that truly achieves the best average/maximum range. But the reality of trying to do so is probably complicated, time-consuming, and expensive. Since new and used Gen 1 wheels and tires are still available (from Rivian and other sources) and (mostly) compatible and interchangeable (but see here), for just a Gen 2 R1S you've got:

• Four Gen 2 R1S model versions (soon to be five) to consider.
• Three wheel sizes (if you include the Gen 1 21" wheel-set).
• Six basic Gen 1 and 2 wheel designs (not counting color variations).
• Five Gen 1 and Gen 2 tire models.
• Two tire diameters (33" & 34").
• Four distinct OEM tire sizes.
• And, like, a gazillion aftermarket wheels and tires in both OEM and non-OEM sizes to evaluate. Even taking into account overlapping/shared variables, there are many permutations to consider (although we can quickly eliminate various models and tires, for example, to decrease complexity somewhat. Fortunately (or not, depending on your point of view), Rivian OEM wheel/tire sizes and its recommended minimum Load Index (116) limit the numbers of applicable aftermarket tires to more manageable levels. Despite all this, there are still a lot of wheel-tire combinations to consider.

On top of this, to be truly accurate a tester might have to evaluate just one variable at a time (holding all other variables** constant)--a tedious, time-consuming, and expensive practice.

So, instead, we are forced to rely on apocryphal, non-scientific, and sometimes flawed reports by well-meaning, often knowledgeable, but undoubtedly biased drivers (who once they plunk down beaucoup bucks for a new set of rubber are psychologically invested in having those tires perform well--I am the same way). Sometimes it seems like tires are like religion; everybody has the best one.*** And there can be many similar considerations (e.g., cost, size, appearance, the brand, life-expectancy, what you intend to get out of them, good with kids, what if you change your mind?, plans for eventual demise, etc.).

One advantage of driving a (battery-heavy yet fast-accelerating) EV: at least we get to try out new tires (more) frequently.

So, despite study of and posts about this topic, I am still waiting for someone to please definitively tell me exactly what to do. (Well, not really. The fun is in figuring this stuff out, right?)

Happy New Year!
_____
* In order to avoid having to (a) buy new/used 20" wheels and (b) re-program the speedometer software. The later objective (b) may be moot if Rivian truly offers drivers the convenient means to reprogram their car's software for various (OEM) wheel/tire sizes via a promised software upgrade (of some type?).

** Including the vehicle, its age, and condition; driver (age + condition); payload; elevation; weather conditions; time of day; traffic; route; numbers of delays; average speed; et cetera, et cetera.

*** According to Matt Stone and Trey Parker ("South Park") the correct religion is,...the Mormons. That's right, it's the Mormons. Sorry, everyone else. (Those two, and their shows, can be both irreverent and hilarious.)

 

[ElGuano]

I currently plan to (later this year) consider a 2025/2026 Max-battery-equipped R1S with 20" wheels* (hence the All-Terrain Package) and (immediately?) switch out the AT tires (and either save or sell those) for a Rivian-appropriate road/highway/touring 34" tire in order to attempt to achieve (a) the best riding comfort (via the higher profile tires) and (b) maximum range.

Best of luck if you go down this route, and let us know what you find out. My prediction is that it may not be worth it - while you save a bit on weight with smaller wheels due to lower rolling resistance, EVs aren't really impacted all too much by weight so much as aerodynamic drag and direct electrical draw (heat pump/resistive heaters, etc.).

The range game is important enough to OEs that they spend millions on research/testing, and they can get a 20-50mile boost with smaller wheels, it would at least be an option they would offer. Frankly, I'm surprised Rivian offers the "range wheels," when by their own claims it yields maybe 0.8-1% improvement over the sports.

 

[anthonysfl]

Best of luck if you go down this route, and let us know what you find out. My prediction is that it may not be worth it - while you save a bit on weight with smaller wheels due to lower rolling resistance, EVs aren't really impacted all too much by weight so much as aerodynamic drag and direct electrical draw (heat pump/resistive heaters, etc.).

The range game is important enough to OEs that they spend millions on research/testing, and they can get a 20-50mile boost with smaller wheels, it would at least be an option they would offer. Frankly, I'm surprised Rivian offers the "range wheels," when by their own claims it yields maybe 0.8-1% improvement over the sports.

No it’s not that important to OE’s that they commit to progress. All they care about is making money. Efficiency doesn’t sell. Ugly wheels don’t sell. “Sporty” looking wheels sell because people like to think they’re sporty when in reality it’s just a car from point A to point B. Why is it that my R1S on 20’s is 8% more efficient than my R1T on 21’s? My quad R1T large pack on 21’s over 5,500 miles got 2.31 mi/kwh at a avg speed of 32mph. My quad R1S large pack on 20’s on 275/60/20 Pirelli AS Plus 3 tires over the 6k miles was at 2.48 mi/kWh at avg speed of 36mph. Now at 15k miles my S is at 2.5 mi/kwh. My S is more efficient with smaller wheels despite not being on EV tires, not having an aerodynamic wheel like the 21s, side steps, driving faster and being less aerodynamic than the T. So the range game isn’t THAT important to Rivian since they won’t commit to a 20” range wheel.

Smaller wheels aren’t important? I guess 10% reduction in fuel efficiency with bigger wheels doesn’t mean anything.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15130598/upsized-wheels-tires/

 

[tps5352]

...“Sporty” looking wheels sell because people like to think they’re sporty...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15130598/upsized-wheels-tires/

I could be wrong, but that is what I am also thinking--that much of it is down to the current market and to 'automotive fashion' (that says low-profile tires are "in").

Lower profile tires on larger wheels have become, over time, a very popular feature on all kind of cars. I can somewhat understand it for road cars--economical and moderately-priced models that want to remind potential buyers of more expensive and exotic sports and racing cars (with tire compounds that grip like mad but wear out very quickly and can cost 10 times more than everyday tires).​

I have more trouble understanding it for pickup trucks and SUVs. (Though I have to say that it is obvious, even to me, that much truck and SUV use is no longer limited to farms, ranches, reservations, construction sites, mines, forests, deserts, and other off-pavement environments. Also, EVs like the Rivian vehicles are quick! So maybe big wheels and small-profile tires make a certain amount of sense? Just not for off-pavement, my experience suggests.)​

Regardless, I suspect (but haven't confirmed) that Rivian drivers can achieve the looks they want coupled with the greater range, more comfortable ride, better tire durability, quieter road noise, and such by using:

• black or dark gray wheels (that from a distance blur the borderline between tires and wheel rims),
• (relatively) smaller diameter wheel-rims (within reason, of course),
• tires with (relatively) larger sidewalls, thereby maintaining tire diameter (often with tire-cost savings).

The disadvantages? Some loss of acceleration, speed, and handling on curves. (Not a concern for me, since I will never be racing a beautiful blonde in a convertible through the winding hilly roads outside of Monte Carlo,...or anywhere else.)

The third* (and best) '007' (Sean Connery, or his stunt double) driving against
'Tilly Masterson' (lovely Tania Mallet, or her stunt double) in Switzerland.
-------------
(* Barry Nelson first played a version of 'James Bond' in a 1954 American TV adaptation of "Casino
Royale." Bob Holness next voiced 'OO7' in a 1956 radio production of "Moonraker".)​

Sponsored