Tesla Fans!

[ajdelange]

Unfortunately, I am bit too close to the energy industry with the exception of oil&gas. The "EV" as a solution is actually playing the reverse effect on me. I am fully on board with reducing and eliminating our carbon footprint, but I do not believe EVs will do that.

I'm intrigued by this comment. Could you expand a bit?

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[Dbeglor]

Sorry if some of these points have been discussed above. Here is my perspective in why I support the company. (no particular order).

-Everyone, especially the traditional car companies, were laughing at them when they started. Elon stuck with it despite almost going bankrupt.

-Elon is the real deal- extremely smart and knows what he is talking about. Not a typical CEO, who's job is sell as many units as possible and make tons of profit. He is what the "trickle down" economic theory is supposed to represent. This country over the years with economic policies, less taxation, lower regulations, etc has directly put money in these billionaires. The theory was that they then would use the money from the policies the country (not from their genius) was supposed to be used to re-invest in the US. Elon did that. Most of the others lined their pockets and still want more.

-I view RJ as similar to Elon in the sense he knows what he is extremely smart and dedicated to this company.

-Tesla is the most American car company. Most of their parts are made in house, including the seats.

-You are paying for technology. I compare driving a Tesla vs ICE car to a flip phone to an Iphone. I have owned over the years some high end cars including Porsches and Ferraris and I can see their days are number as pure transportation vehicles. In terms of performance, the electric cars have decimated them in almost every category except maybe on the track.

-I have driven the Porsche Taycan and can say that was one of the best cars I have driven. The fit and finish was amazing, light years ahead of my Tesla. However I would still not buy one. Less range, questionable better performance, questionable future resale value, double the price.

-Teslas keep renew themselves by the OTA software updates. My wife's 4 year old Tesla has most features of a new Tesla and free of charge (so far). Good luck with the majority of the other car companies, once the car leaves the lot- your technology and depreciation dips.

-My friend really likes the Lucid. My response was that I have not seen one on the road. GM and VW have been working on electric cars for years and have poured billions into this endeveor. In theory and the prototypes look good, however none of their production cars can complete with Tesla yet.

-Safety- we live in Atlanta and not going to a gas station may have saved our lives or prevented a robbery.(ha ha).

All great points. I will say though that Lucid appears poised to be more advanced than Tesla in the important areas of range, batteries and drivetrain technology (yes, they are just starting to ship cars, so that caveat aside). All accounts are that build quality will be as well. They are just self admittedly 7-10 years away from offering an "affordable" model to sell.

People always annoyingly talk about "Tesla killers", but I think they are the best thing to happen to Tesla. Nothing kills a company quicker than lack of competition. I also have a feeling Elon will step away from Tesla in the not-too-distant future and focus his energy mostly on SpaceX and other pursuits. It makes the most sense, his skills are in early-stage vision and development. I don't see him being interested in the monotony of running an established car company, R&D on fit and finish is a big yawn to him. Tesla is reaching the point that they need a proven and boring operator. I also think he will see his "work" as done once EV's are racing towards full adoption and he'll lose interest, relative to space exploration and boring tunnels. These are all positive things for both Tesla and humankind.

 

[Whmorken]

From 3 to Y to X. Now in X. Next LE R1S. No looking back. The first Tesla was and is the model T of our generation. Not enough space to give all the reasons. Living in horse country as I do, with not one road (dirt or paved) for 60 miles to the north, I celebrate all who walk the trails, mount their horses, and will shortly pass our home silently in a Rivian, ready for every rut and pond-sized pot hole filled with rain water. How can I not drive an EV? Shalom

 

[ajdelange]

All great points. I will say though that Lucid appears poised to be more advanced than Tesla in the important areas of range, batteries and drivetrain technology

That's exactly how they want to "appear" but in fact their impressive range comes mostly from installing a bit more battery. This is not to downplay that they have done some things with the motor efficiency and especially drag but the simple fact is that Tesla and Rivian could also get more range by the simple expedient of adding more battery.

 

[Riventures]

I'm intrigued by this comment. Could you expand a bit?

I will avoid writing a whole thesis on this here, and also state that I am not a participant, but a close observer in the energy industry with a very specific angle of view.

We are seeing that renewable energy solutions are having significant problems in generating sufficient power in the face of increasing energy demand. The financial and environmental costs of increasing renewable energy resources are unlikely to offset even just the increase in the energy demands.

EVs make up only 4% of American auto sales at this point, 3% of that is Tesla. The battery technologies are advancing at a rapid rate, and the efficiency of batteries is also superb. However, generating and storing enough energy to move vehicles the way we currently do is likely a losing battle, because renewable energy's efficiencies are far behind battery capabilities. So, there is a major delta that I don't think we figured out how to address. I am not even touching the recycling of batteries at this point. The word "recycling" is very misleading in this context - today.

In the meantime, increases in EV usage will have to be accommodated, because the majority believe it will positively impact climate change and our quality of life. However, it is estimated that to meet the demand of energy EVs will require will result in an increase in coal production to the tune of 26%. In addition, the financial and environmental costs of manufacturing batteries remain relatively steady, although a relatively small reduction is observed.

I am in the opinion that unless we address our mid-term energy production and electrical grid problems, EV movement will stall. This may happen at a point in which people who are already skeptics of EVs will not be able to use the technology due to reasons that are not directly related to EVs. For example, when people cannot use their EVs to move their families out of harm's way during a major storm or fire because the electric grid was down or electricity (and water) has been rationed due to a 30-year drought, they will turn against EVs on mass.

So, in this rather pessimistic scenario, will EVs ultimately reduce our carbon footprint? It may have the exact opposite effect if we continue to view the scope of the discussion as "EV," "renewables," etc., and not as energy production in the balance of environmental well-being.

We do not have a coordinated, multi-angle strategy as a country to address these issues and I do think we are ignoring some of the relatively easier solutions due to misinformation that has been spread over decades.

The real question in my mind, what will it take to make fundamental changes, while accepting that we will have to make uncomfortable compromises and sacrifices that won't be evenly distributed across society. And frankly, some of the answers lie with Tesla, not necessarily as a company, but as a lessons-learned study.

 

[Dbeglor]

That's exactly how they want to "appear" but in fact their impressive range comes mostly from installing a bit more battery. This is not to downplay that they have done some things with the motor efficiency and especially drag but the simple fact is that Tesla and Rivian could also get more range by the simple expedient of adding more battery.

It's actually about 50/50. 25% more range is about 12.5% more battery and 12.5% efficiency gains from lower drag and more efficient/lighter drivetrain components. The power to weight ratio of the motors is several multiples that of anyone else. Plus, you could argue that the innovation of making smaller drivetrain components allows them the ability to squeeze more battery in the same form factor, so yeah they have more batteries but no one else can do the same.

Now all of it is nothing more than to grab headlines to build the brand, because the world doesn't need a $100k+sedan that can go 500+ miles, we need affordable ones that can go 300-350 mi, but that is their plan, to scale down that tech into those products.

 

[Denver_Paulie]

-I have driven the Porsche Taycan and can say that was one of the best cars I have driven. The fit and finish was amazing, light years ahead of my Tesla. However I would still not buy one. Less range, questionable better performance, questionable future resale value, double the price.


I agree with most of your post except for this comment on the Porsche Taycan. And, sorry to get off subject, but would like to offer a differing opinion since I have driven 20k miles in a Taycan over the past year and a half.

Let me start by saying that I have no issues with Tesla or its vehicles, my issues are with Elon Musk and the Trumpian cult of personality that surround that d-bag. I owned two different Model S' and two different Model X's over the years, but now drive a Taycan 4s, a e-hyrbrid Cayenne, and have an R1T on order.

I can get to Vegas, LA, Scottsdale, or Vegas in the same time, or faster, in my Taycan than I can in a Tesla. The Range versus charging speed discussion has already has already been put to be bed, except by the Tesla cultists. Obviously, I would prefer that Electrify America have the same reliability as the Tesla Supercharger network, but if the EA location is working as designed, I can charge to 80% in ten or fifteen minutes.

Performance? Come on. You think that most people are driving their car around the Nurburgring? Don't confuse going around the Nurburgring with every day performance. Try going up and down Independence Pass in Colorado in a Model S or a Taycan. Absolutely no comparison. Driving a Tesla is like driving a computer on wheels, while a Taycan is still a Porsche. Sure, the electronics are a little wonky at times, and certainly not as intuitive as a Tesla, but it drives much, much better.

Resale value? I got a call from my dealership last week to see if I wanted to sell my Taycan back to them for almost MSRP since they are near impossible to find unless you order. And, I would keep the tax benefit. Don't confuse a Taycan with a Macan and mention questionable resale value when that is inaccurate.

Double the price? Depends on what you spec. I would certainly not buy a $200k Turbo S, but I would also not by a $130k Plaid Model S at more than half the price of the Porsche.

While I am thoroughly enjoying my Taycan, I can't wait to get my R1T to add balance to my garage. A superior electric electric driving machine balanced with an American manufactured electric off road vehicle both mainly powered by the solar panels on my house. Can't wait.

 

[ajdelange]

Driving a Tesla is like driving a computer on wheels, while a Taycan is still a Porsche. Sure, the electronics are a little wonky at times, and certainly not as intuitive as a Tesla, but it drives much, much better.

Can you explain a bit what that means?

 

[Denver_Paulie]

Can you explain a bit what that means?

I don't want to derail the conversation, but I think it is well known that one of Tesla's strengths is software, and the user interface between software and machine. Just look at Over the Air updates. No one has come close to what Tesla does in this regard.

In the past nearly 6 years, I have had Tesla EV's, Audi, EV's and Porsche EV's. The Audi was by far the most comfortable. My current Porsche Taycan drives like no other. The Tesla's, however, had by far the best user interface to help manage vehicle functionality, and GPS planning for charging spots to facilitate road trips. Porsche, Audi, and VW all have a long way to go to get anywhere near how slick and easy to use the Tesla interface is currently.

Every person's preference is going to be their own when it comes to needs and wants from a vehicle. Currently, driving a Taycan is exhilarating enough for me to look past the software shortcomings. As I get older, comfort may be more important and I may shift back to an Audi e-Tron. Hopefully, they will have improved the range and user interface by then. While I loved my Tesla's and how integrated the software is with the vehicle, and the charging network, I never got the feeling that it was a "car car." It always felt like a computer with wheels to me since I felt the driving experience was bland. Once again, that opinion is mine, and yours may be different.

That being said, every EV manufacturer moving forward will have to thank Tesla for what they started - there are things they do better currently, and somethings others do better currently. There is a enough space out there for everyone to carve out their own niche, and not need to bash another EV manufacturer out of blind loyalty to one brand. The bigger picture is how to move to a carbon free driving experience, not worship at the alter of Elon Musk.

Once again, just my view.

 

[Whmorken]

I don't want to derail the conversation, but I think it is well known that one of Tesla's strengths is software, and the user interface between software and machine. Just look at Over the Air updates. No one has come close to what Tesla does in this regard.

In the past nearly 6 years, I have had Tesla EV's, Audi, EV's and Porsche EV's. The Audi was by far the most comfortable. My current Porsche Taycan drives like no other. The Tesla's, however, had by far the best user interface to help manage vehicle functionality, and GPS planning for charging spots to facilitate road trips. Porsche, Audi, and VW all have a long way to go to get anywhere near how slick and easy to use the Tesla interface is currently.

Every person's preference is going to be their own when it comes to needs and wants from a vehicle. Currently, driving a Taycan is exhilarating enough for me to look past the software shortcomings. As I get older, comfort may be more important and I may shift back to an Audi e-Tron. Hopefully, they will have improved the range and user interface by then. While I loved my Tesla's and how integrated the software is with the vehicle, and the charging network, I never got the feeling that it was a "car car." It always felt like a computer with wheels to me since I felt the driving experience was bland. Once again, that opinion is mine, and yours may be different.

That being said, every EV manufacturer moving forward will have to thank Tesla for what they started - there are things they do better currently, and somethings others do better currently. There is a enough space out there for everyone to carve out their own niche, and not need to bash another EV manufacturer out of blind loyalty to one brand. The bigger picture is how to move to a carbon free driving experience, not worship at the alter of Elon Musk.

Once again, just my view.

Well said from a wealth of experience. Talking to the Tesla service man who comes to my house with years ++ of experience with Tesla and Mercedes

I don't want to derail the conversation, but I think it is well known that one of Tesla's strengths is software, and the user interface between software and machine. Just look at Over the Air updates. No one has come close to what Tesla does in this regard.

In the past nearly 6 years, I have had Tesla EV's, Audi, EV's and Porsche EV's. The Audi was by far the most comfortable. My current Porsche Taycan drives like no other. The Tesla's, however, had by far the best user interface to help manage vehicle functionality, and GPS planning for charging spots to facilitate road trips. Porsche, Audi, and VW all have a long way to go to get anywhere near how slick and easy to use the Tesla interface is currently.

Every person's preference is going to be their own when it comes to needs and wants from a vehicle. Currently, driving a Taycan is exhilarating enough for me to look past the software shortcomings. As I get older, comfort may be more important and I may shift back to an Audi e-Tron. Hopefully, they will have improved the range and user interface by then. While I loved my Tesla's and how integrated the software is with the vehicle, and the charging network, I never got the feeling that it was a "car car." It always felt like a computer with wheels to me since I felt the driving experience was bland. Once again, that opinion is mine, and yours may be different.

That being said, every EV manufacturer moving forward will have to thank Tesla for what they started - there are things they do better currently, and somethings others do better currently. There is a enough space out there for everyone to carve out their own niche, and not need to bash another EV manufacturer out of blind loyalty to one brand. The bigger picture is how to move to a carbon free driving experience, not worship at the alter of Elon Musk.

Once again, just my view.

Well said with excellent experience with three great companies. My Tesla service rep who comes to my house with years +++ of experience with Tesla and Mercedes tells me that the current Tesla X 2020 and 2021 are so much better than the early editions in every sense from reliability to driving quality that you can call it a different car though it looks the same or nearly so. Hopefully this will be the case with all the companies going forward, competing and learning from each other. A lot of this discussion goes back to robot quality which in turn relies on software improvements. Away we go!

 

[Babbuino]

Can't wait for the R1S 70mph test

 

[Joel]

Can't wait for the R1S 70mph test

That’s exactly why I am getting the max pack In the R1T.

 

[ajdelange]

The man runs up and down the NJTPK at constant 70 mph and compares the range to a test done using a profile with average speed 48 mph and concludes from this that Tesla's EPA results are somehow invalid. And people accept this. Lots of them.

 

[Moonjock]

The man runs up and down the NJTPK at constant 70 mph and compares the range to a test done using a profile with average speed 48 mph and concludes from this that Tesla's EPA results are somehow invalid. And people accept this. Lots of them.

You are correct, I think the bigger problem is the EPA using 48 mph. I never drive that slow on the HWY but that is what they use so it's what we get.

 

[Riventures]

The man runs up and down the NJTPK at constant 70 mph and compares the range to a test done using a profile with average speed 48 mph and concludes from this that Tesla's EPA results are somehow invalid. And people accept this. Lots of them.

If I understood his comments correctly, he says that Tesla's results are consistently estimating their EPA results higher than their (InsideEVs') testing, and all other manufacturers' results are consistently underestimating, from a range perspective. He goes on to explain that EPA provides two different formulas for estimating, and Tesla uses the one that shows more favorable numbers, whereas all other manufacturers are using the simpler formula.

What is wrong with this?

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