UWB (Digital Car Key) Support

[CommodoreAmiga]

And based on the new FCC filings that @kanundrum flagged in another thread, it looks like they will have NFC somewhere in the vehicle, which makes sense for key cards.

It will also have BLE, but that could be used for a variety of things.

I hope they do support NFC for car lock/unlock. But just to provide an alternate explanation, NFC is often implemented in vehicles for bluetooth pairing. For example, here's a video from Honda:

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[CommodoreAmiga]

If a car has an app that supports "remote unlock" and "remote start", such as the Tesla app, then the Internet is necessarily involved in that operation.

For the Tesla app, as an example, they *COULD* support "local bluetooth unlock" when you're right next to the car... but they don't. If you're somewhere out of network range, you cannot use your phone to unlock the car.

This is false.

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/the-definitive-guide-to-using-a-smartphone-as-a-key.5621/

Experiment #1: Samsung Galaxy S7 edge (my daily wireless phone)
Tesla App already installed and vehicles loaded into app.
Set to Airplane mode. This kills WiFi, Cellular, and BT.
While in Airplane mode, turned BT back on.
Result: All controls (lock/unlock, frunk and trunk) work while in proximity to the vehicle.
Experiment #2: Samsung Galaxy S7 edge. Rebooted phone while in airplane mode.
Opened Tesla app (of course, it says "check internet connection"). Cellular off, WiFi off, BT On.
Approach the vehicle.
Result: All controls (lock/unlock, frunk and trunk) work while in proximity to the vehicle.
Experiment #3: Verizon prepay Moto G Play (no account on Verizon, was used as an emergency phone for a 2016)
Used WiFi to go to Play Store, downloaded Tesla App.
While on WiFi, log into the app with Tesla credentials. Vehicles appear on app.
Turn off WiFi. (There is no cellular service on this phone!)
BT on.
App says "Set up phone to act as key? Have your keycard and go to the car." (paraphrasing)
Went to car. Followed app prompts.
Phone key success.
Result: All controls (lock/unlock, frunk and trunk) work while in proximity to the vehicle.

CONCLUSION: You DON'T NEED A CELL CONNECTION, OR EVEN A PHONE THAT HAS A WIRELESS ACCOUNT to use the phone as a "key."

 

[Autolycus]

I hope they do support NFC for car lock/unlock. But just to provide an alternate explanation, NFC is often implemented in vehicles for bluetooth pairing. For example, here's a video from Honda:

Fair enough. The FCC application is for "Vehicle Access System NFC Door Interior" though, so I strongly suspect it's for getting into the vehicle rather than for pairing bluetooth devices. Unfortunately most of the documents attached to the filing are confidential and non-public at this time.

Side note, here's the application's note about the required FCC declarations which must be included in the user manual:

To Whom It May Concern:
We, Rivian Automotive, LLC, declare all regulatory information is available to the end user on the vehicle center display.

The end user can access the comprehensive Owner’s Guide with
the following process:
Step 1 -Accessing user manual (Vehicle Icon)
Step 2 - Submenu open user manual (Book icon)
Step 3 -Access “Legal and Reference” for regulatory information

 

[thrill]

I hope they do support NFC for car lock/unlock. But just to provide an alternate explanation, NFC is often implemented in vehicles for bluetooth pairing. For example, here's a video from Honda:

The FCC filing is titled "Vehicle Access System NFC Door Interior"

 

[Jarico75]

For the Tesla app, as an example, they *COULD* support "local Bluetooth unlock" when you're right next to the car... but they don't. If you're somewhere out of network range, you cannot use your phone to unlock the car.

I don't think this is right. We went on a trip to Palms Springs from Utah and there were some dead cell areas where we stopped to take pictures in the desert. The phones let us back in the car. There is some technology in the Y that allows a proximity unlock with the phone.

*EDIT*
Just turned Bluetooth off on my phone and the app gave me a message that says phone key will not work without Bluetooth on.

 

[electruck]

And based on the new FCC filings that @kanundrum flagged in another thread, it looks like they will have NFC somewhere in the vehicle, which makes sense for key cards.

It will also have BLE, but that could be used for a variety of things.

BLE was specifically associated with the "Vehicle Access System".

 

[electruck]

Here's a good read on how BLE, NFC and UWB can be utilized for vehicle access:

https://www.mwrf.com/technologies/s...ooth-low-energy-uwb-and-nfc-for-keyless-entry

 

[Smithery]

This is false.

The assertion that this is false is... false.

Yes, my statement needed a qualifier which was in the context of my bio, but your statement also needed a qualifier that was nonexistent.

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/the-definitive-guide-to-using-a-smartphone-as-a-key.5621/

It's great that this persons Model 3 works as designed for Model 3.

For my Model X, my statement was 100% true.

Regardless, as mentioned in my reply, any scenario where *you must unlock your phone to open an app* is untenable for vehicle access.

 

[Jarico75]

@Smithery your own link points to experiment #1 which proves that proximity tests with just bluetooth still unlocks all the doors and can start the car.

Experiment #1: Samsung Galaxy S7 edge (my daily wireless phone)
Tesla App already installed and vehicles loaded into app.
Set to Airplane mode. This kills WiFi, Cellular, and BT.
While in Airplane mode, turned BT back on.
Result: All controls (lock/unlock, frunk and trunk) work while in proximity to the vehicle.

I bolded the result line for your reference.

 

[Smithery]

I don't think this is right. We went on a trip to Palms Springs from Utah and there were some dead cell areas where we stopped to take pictures in the desert. The phones let us back in the car. There is some technology in the Y that allows a proximity unlock with the phone.

*EDIT*
Just turned Bluetooth off on my phone and the app gave me a message that says phone key will not work without Bluetooth on.

This is right for S and X

3 and Y can handle it, which is great!

Regardless, as also mentioned in reply, any scenario where one must unlock their phone and open an app is not tenable for key fob replacement.

 

[Smithery]

@Smithery your own link points to experiment #1 which proves that proximity tests with just bluetooth still unlocks all the doors and can start the car.

That link was not mine, it was Amiga's. I was replying to his mention of the link.

Experiment #1: Samsung Galaxy S7 edge (my daily wireless phone)
Tesla App already installed and vehicles loaded into app.
Set to Airplane mode. This kills WiFi, Cellular, and BT.
While in Airplane mode, turned BT back on.
Result: All controls (lock/unlock, frunk and trunk) work while in proximity to the vehicle.

I bolded the result line for your reference.

Thank you for that.

However - even with the lines bolded - it does not change the fact that the experiments listed work for Model 3 and Y, but not my Model X or any coworkers S and X who have all shared this complaint with me

 

[thrill]

...
Regardless, as also mentioned in reply, any scenario where one must unlock their phone and open an app is not tenable for key fob replacement.

Where does this minimum standard of service come from?

 

[electruck]

Where does this minimum standard of service come from?

Probably from those who, like myself, have grown accustomed to doing nothing to unlock a car other than keeping a fob in their pocket. I don't take anything out of my pocket and I don't push any buttons. I merely walk up to the car and pull the door handle and it just seamlessly unlocks and opens. It would be a huge step backwards for those of us used to this to have to suddenly start futzing with a slow, mutli-step process on our phone. I really don't anticipate this being the case with Rivian but we'll know for sure s00n enough.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

The assertion that this is false is... false.

Yes, my statement needed a qualifier which was in the context of my bio, but your statement also needed a qualifier that was nonexistent.



It's great that this persons Model 3 works as designed for Model 3.

For my Model X, my statement was 100% true.

Regardless, as mentioned in my reply, any scenario where *you must unlock your phone to open an app* is untenable for vehicle access.

Way to move the goal posts! You're a PRO!

 

[kylealden]

We don't have details on how the phone key works. I'm assuming it's like the 3/Y, where it works via bluetooth with the phone locked and with no internet connected. If not, that's a major bummer - not a dealbreaker for me personally, but a big enthusiasm damper.

That said, we have no reason to panic on this front. Most comparable modern vehicles have a hands-free phone key approach and I see no reason to assume Rivian would be an exception.

UWB would be interesting but I'd rather they support a wider range of phones via bluetooth, even if it's a fallback option.

The concern about no valet key is a reasonable one - One thing I like about the Tesla keycard approach is that I can keep one in the glovebox still use my phone as my main lock, but I always have a keycard at hand for a valet or if am going hiking or something and may not have a reliable cell battery. If the fob is the only option and also wirelessly unlocks the door, that could make it a more awkward dance. I currently have zero keys or fobs in my EDC and I'm not interested in adding any.

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