Why R1T outselling Lightning 4-1?

[RivRyan]

Basically, I think you are saying the lightning doesn’t have enough range. Nor an option to get more range like the Rivian max pack.

The Lightning offers plenty of hauling and towing for the uses I put my Tundras to for the last 20 years, and realistically the range is probably sufficient for me, as it would be for many. I think there are fewer trucks towing motor boats to summer homes and a lot that just haul stuff, or pull the occasional work trailer 30 or 40 miles RT. Overnight recharge would be fine.

I'm turned away by a company that touts a much higher range than it achieves, even if the true range is sufficient. It makes me wonder what else won't work the way they say it does, and whether there are manufacturing inconsistencies making it more likely I'll get stuck with a lemon. It makes me distrust Ford (and Tesla).

Though maybe I'm fickle, since we're considering a VW EV despite their emissions fraud of a few yers back.

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[RivRyan]

Ford sold more than 4400 Lightnings in November. Rivian did not sell 16,000 R1Ts....

Whoops. Retracting my post. The OP is correct:
Ford F-150 Lightning breaks monthly sales record in November (electrek.co)

Apparently, Ford really found its way. That puts them pretty close to Rivian's expected monthlies this quarter.

Annualized, that would be more than 50,000, and put the Lightning very close to the Ranger/ahead of the Ridgeline. That's respectable, if it's not just massive clearance.

 

[strangelove]

A lot of good points here. I’d also add that MOST Lightnings are high spec and expensive, and the folks who are willing to spend that kind of cash on a sophisticated (I.e. NOT an F250 King Ranch sledgehammer) vehicle don’t want the hassle of a Ford dealership. It’s a terrible experience once you’ve purchased directly from a new-blood company like Tesla or Rivian. Service my be another story, but the sales experience isn’t good on low end lots. I was considering replacing my Grand Sport, which I bought online and shipped, with a new Z06. I set one food inside the Chevy dealership with my son, and it was such a loud and dirty clown show he actually asked if we could leave. First world problems, but until the apocalypse, they are still problems.

 

[Tenn]

I took delivery of both my Rivian and a Lightning in July of 2022 after being the first allocation in Nashville. I purchased the Lightning about 2 weeks before I received the Rivian. My neighbors were super confused about me suddenly having 2 pickups in the driveway after driving a BMW station wagon for the last 6 years.

I will say - the Lightning is super smooth, extremely quiet and had a very compliant and locomotive like quality to its drive train. I imagine a very strong highway cruiser as well and the Blue Cruise was just bonkers good.

I kept my Rivian and sold the Lightning because of what a lot of you mentioned here. The R1T was more forward looking, it was more playful in its driving characteristics and as a city dweller, I could actually park it without damaging it (most of the time).

I loved the Lightning and if the R1T didn't exist, I would have kept it. I do think there is a market for it as it is a wonderfully capable vehicle but the current political climate and fear are keeping its market at bay.

I sometimes wish Ford had kept their stake in Rivian and their plans for Rivian to build a Lincoln. I think it would have been an excellent marriage of SoCal thinking and Detroit know how that would have benefited the entire industry.

 

[SDH]

The EV work truck will sell when it has reasonable range at a $40k price point, charging infrastructure is as easy as gas, and the customers have confidence that it will be as reliable (or repairable) as their current ICE truck.

In other words, never! Or at least not for a very long time.

OK, I'm being cynical, because I agree with 100% with this.

 

[Technowizzard]

Ford's dealers seem to think they know better than Ford how the company should be run.

Turns out if the dealers try really hard to hide the EVs on their lots and make sure their sales jerks don't know anything about them and incentivize selling only the ICE vehicles, those darn EVs just don't sell very well ?‍

Real reason, the UAW contract just negotiated with Ford and GM ate their lunch. Their profit margins are in the toilet. Layoffs begin in January. EV production slashed.

 

[COdogman]

Real reason, the UAW contract just negotiated with Ford and GM ate their lunch. Their profit margins are in the toilet. Layoffs begin in January. EV production slashed.

Ford was being screwed over by their own dealers LONG before the latest union contract situation. Same thing with the other members of the "big 3". It's been this way for a long time.

Years ago we went to a Chevy dealer because a specific Volt was listed in their inventory. We had called ahead and they said to come in and ask for a specific sales weirdo. We get there and he immediately starts trying to talk her out of the Volt and into buying a Silverado! After about 20 minutes of that he realized she wasn't going for that and he said he would locate the Volt and bring it around for a walkthrough, test drive. They took 45 minutes to "find" the Volt, and the walkthrough was probably the worst I've ever seen. He was clearly not trained on any of the features of it - didn't know the range or the type of engine it had. Knew nothing about charging or safety features. So he let us take it for a drive and we tested out everything we already knew about it.

She bought it, but we also had to sit through another attempt to get her to switch to an Impala and then a Camaro. Then came the requisite wait to meet with the financing department even though she had her own financing. The entire dealer network for all these brands are actively working against them while they attempt to adapt to the future. So if they fail there is plenty of blame to go around.

The legacy manufacturers are very bloated at the top with overpaid salaries and people holding executive positions that are probably not even necessary. So I don't blame the UAW for trying to pry some of that back for the workers. In the end, non union manufacturers will have to offer similar compensation to workers or no one will want to work for them. It will all level out.

 

[AllInev]

Ford sold more than 4400 Lightnings in November. Rivian did not sell 16,000 R1Ts....

Exactly. Where did OP find this 4:1 number?

I suppose if you include sales of the R1T + R1S + EDV then you MIGHT get close to that 4:1 ratio?

 

[HaveBlue]

Rivian went after the Tacoma and 4runner buyers. Those are the people who want a more efficient package that's capable on road and off. Problem is they built tundra and Landcruiser/LX sized vehicles that cost double. At the launch price they were competitive. They'll have to adjust long term like Tesla is doing with volume. Sub 20mpg is leaving those Toyota buyers wanting more. I don't think the new 4cyl hybrid drivetrain in the new taco and 4runner based Landcruiser Is going to get people where they want to be. Those vehicles should have happened ten years ago. At best another ten will go by before Toyota wakes up. The gas savings will never make sense considering how much the rivian costs to begin with but it's a matter of features. If you're buying the latest and greatest, you want a super efficient fast car as boxes you check off the list because you are going to keep it. When it's time to sell used, it needs to compete with 5-10 year newer tech. I've driven hybrids. The driving experience sucks but the efficiency in gas and purchase price is excellent. The only worse driving experience is the automatic start stop system in conventional ice cars where it can never decide what to do. The electric cars purchased today will get cleaner as time goes on. A hybrid is just a slower burn of also being stuck on petroleum.

 

[Robin]

What about professional low class like myself?

??

 

[RivRyan]

I could actually park it without damaging it (most of the time).

Because of superior sightlines or cameras? Or just size?

 

[mike2191]

I was one of the earliest reservationist to the Ford Lighting. When it’s time for me to order and finalized my trim. Ford said they don’t. Have my trim available and to go to the higher trim(bait and switch)I told them I will wait until it’s available. 2nd round. They increase the price. Wound not honor the original price. So I cancelled the order. Would have been my 1st Ford ever. This left me a very bad taste to the Ford Brand. So I got my R1T and R1S. I’m very happy. Love my Rivians. (Phota Rivian R1S Delivered in Sept.2023, R1T Delivered July 2022)

 

[Tenn]

Because of superior sightlines or cameras? Or just size?

Size of the truck and the fact that I’m pretty bad with bumping into things. Once I get a new vehicle, it’s not actually mine until a quarter panel has a ding or a scratch. The Lightning can be a load in a parking lot.

 

[Supratachophobia]

Because the lightning is a truck without a market. It doesn't appeal to the F-150 buyer because he wants to tow. The Rivian doesn't go after the traditional truck market. Tech bros and upper middle to upper class professionals are the ones buying the Rivian and many of them weren't F-150 buyers.

Totally not true. The percentage of regular F150 buyers that requires towing is 5-10%. The percentage that think the *need* towing, 25%. Everyone I know with a lightning is a lifetime f150 buyer, and they love the truck.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Yeah, sorry guys, my big oops. I messed up delivery numbers, looks like Lightning sales in 2023 through 3Q23 was about 12,000, while Rivian delivered about 35,000 total vehicles in the same period, so a rough guess is the same number of R1T and Lightnings sold this year.

Still, impressive that startup RIvian has been able to match Ford.

It will be interesting to see how many Cybertrucks Tesla can put on the road in 2024. Tesla has been downplaying production expectations, and in fact hasn't given us any production estimates for 2024.

Now that CT pricing is out showing similar pricing to R1T and Lightning, and realization that new CT orders have at least a 2 year wait, I expect a lot more R1T and Lightnings to be sold going forward.

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