Why no Trailseeker/R2 comparisons?

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Probably offends you but you have to admit there is truth in this (unless you have absolutely no idea where Subaru stands on EVs): between a brand that wholeheartedly believes in electric cars as the way forward and one that would rather not build any if they can help it… there’s no comparison.

Subaru is partly owned by Toyota. Toyota has not only expressed its displeasure about EVs, it has actively lobbied against climate initiatives and mandates with its dollars. Under the Subaru badge and skin, the car is a Toyota.

Now ask yourself, would any OEM who is skeptical about EVs be serious about building an EV so good that they are worthy of your hard earned money?

Now if you’d rather stick with a familiar brand and feeling of security that provides… then there is truth in that too. But let’s not confuse feelings with substance.

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[SlaterGS]

Not saying the Trailseeker isn't a decent vehicle, but depending on your definition of "off road" one of the vehicles has the chops for much more serious conditions.

Around here, "off road" is more about handling winter conditions, backroads riddled with potholes, washed out lanes, reaching crop fields without direct access, etc. Very few people actually "off road" but the AWD and extra clearance are very valuable.

 

[SlaterGS]

Probably offends you but you have to admit there is truth in this (unless you have absolutely no idea where Subaru stands on EVs): between a brand that wholeheartedly believes in electric cars as the way forward and one that would rather not build any if they can help it… there’s no comparison.

While I personally agree, the average consumer is unfortunately absolutely unaware so the comparison does remain.
My cousin has had Subaru's for decades. Now interested in electric and I told her about the R2, but it came down to the Subaru brand being known to her and Rivian is not.

 

[Yamazaki]

Probably offends you but you have to admit there is truth in this (unless you have absolutely no idea where Subaru stands on EVs): between a brand that wholeheartedly believes in electric cars as the way forward and one that would rather not build any if they can help it… there’s no comparison.

Subaru is partly owned by Toyota. Toyota has not only expressed its displeasure about EVs, it has actively lobbied against climate initiatives and mandates with its dollars. Under the Subaru badge and skin, the car is a Toyota.

I take no offense from other people's opinions. And I even agree with much of what you say.
I see it from a different perspective though. Japanese car companies are very conservative (small c) because that's how Japanese culture is. They don't do wild new innovations, they improve on what already exists. (Obviously I am generalizing grossly here, but as a generalized comparison with the US, I think the observation stands). I expect as the EV market grows, then the Japanese auto industry will find ways to improve it and do a better job of blending old with new. But I would not look to them as trailblazers in a relatively new field. The trailblazers are almost always US companies. Looking at Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft, and on and on.....

EDIT: We also look to Japanese brands for reliability. And both Toyota and Subaru are well known for that. While I'm buying into a lot of the Rivian excitement, if I didn't live within 30 minutes of a Rivian SC, I wouldn't get one.

 

[DuoRivian]

Probably offends you but you have to admit there is truth in this (unless you have absolutely no idea where Subaru stands on EVs): between a brand that wholeheartedly believes in electric cars as the way forward and one that would rather not build any if they can help it… there’s no comparison.

Subaru is partly owned by Toyota. Toyota has not only expressed its displeasure about EVs, it has actively lobbied against climate initiatives and mandates with its dollars. Under the Subaru badge and skin, the car is a Toyota.

Now ask yourself, would any OEM who is skeptical about EVs be serious about building an EV so good that they are worthy of your hard earned money?

Why would it offend me? I have an R1 and awaiting converting my day 1 R2 reservation so I am a Rivian fan.
It is fair to note that the Trailseeker (for the money) is a good vehicle and Toyota have moved on (to some degree) from their skepticism (which did allow them to avoid multi billion dollar losses like Ho da, GM and Ford).
They have built a perfectly reasonable EV for mainstream owners - things to improve but given the major leap from the cheap Gen 1 things a step forward. I also like wagons so the shape is a positive in my eyes - YMMV.

I am glad to see more options and not just in the $50k plus range. The new Highlander (showing they are more serious using a brand name with a good reputation) shows promise for those wanting three rows.

 

[LevelHeaded]

Not saying the Trailseeker isn't a decent vehicle, but depending on your definition of "off road" one of the vehicles has the chops for much more serious conditions.

Other than a bit of extra ground clearance and available knobbier tires, the R2 has nothing that makes it particularly better at off-roading than any other dual-motor EV.

The marketing would have you believe it’s similar to a 4Runner or Wrangler in capability, but it’s closer to an “Adventure” trim of any crossover on the market. Look at the few tests of it off-road that have been done.

Marketing is a hell of a drug!

That being said, it’s has more capability than 99% of the buying public needs (as do any of those other soft-road trim CUVs), and that’s all that matters.

https://www.theautopian.com/the-lon...h-review-of-the-rivian-r2-you-will-ever-read/

Scroll to the “off-roading” section. Mediocre capability at best. The only thing enabling it is slightly more ground clearance than most competition. But the suspension, traction control, and geometry are nothing noteworthy.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

I take no offense from other people's opinions. And I even agree with much of what you say.
I see it from a different perspective though. Japanese car companies are very conservative (small c) because that's how Japanese culture is. They don't do wild new innovations, they improve on what already exists. (Obviously I am generalizing grossly here, but as a generalized comparison with the US, I think the observation stands). I expect as the EV market grows, then the Japanese auto industry will find ways to improve it and do a better job of blending old with new. But I would not look to them as trailblazers in a relatively new field. The trailblazers are almost always US companies. Looking at Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft, and on and on.....

Toyota, through its stakes, has an alliance of brands that are all resisting electrification. It has a very visible internal struggle between the regressives and progressives. Senior management, being in charge, is currently winning that fight. And the Japanese government is on the same page. And from their Japan-centric POV EVs can’t work because the Japanese grid and urban planning can’t support wide adoption of EVs. There isn’t even standardized grid power among different parts of Japan. The only reasons they make any EVs at all is they recognize they would lose revenue and market share abroad at a faster pace if they didn’t. So, for now, stalling the inevitable with half measures. Personally, half measures are not worthy of my money. More options are good. Doesn’t mean I would personally recommend every single one, including bad ones. But if someone else wants to make bad choices, that’s their prerogative and that’s all right.

 

[Thebandit]

Other than a bit of extra ground clearance and available knobbier tires, the R2 has nothing that makes it particularly better at off-roading than any other dual-motor EV.

The marketing would have you believe it’s similar to a 4Runner or Wrangler in capability, but it’s closer to an “Adventure” trim of any crossover on the market. Look at the few tests of it off-road that have been done.

Marketing is a hell of a drug!

That being said, it’s has more capability than 99% of the buying public needs (as do any of those other soft-road trim CUVs), and that’s all that matters.

https://www.theautopian.com/the-lon...h-review-of-the-rivian-r2-you-will-ever-read/

Scroll to the “off-roading” section. Mediocre capability at best. The only thing enabling it is slightly more ground clearance than most competition. But the suspension, traction control, and geometry are nothing noteworthy.

I mean it's roughly equivalent to a Forester Wilderness. Capable, sure, but not some crazy off-road beast.

 

[Yamazaki]

I also like wagons so the shape is a positive in my eyes - YMMV.

It's funny, I like the new Outback because it no longer looks like a wagon... I've been bummed that it continued to get the XT engine while the Forester hasn't since 2019. In my mind, there's no more purpose to the Forester anymore...
The Trailseeker's clear Outback lineage is something that rankles me a bit... despite all the other positives.

 

[Thebandit]

It's funny, I like the new Outback because it no longer looks like a wagon... I've been bummed that it continued to get the XT engine while the Forester hasn't since 2019. In my mind, there's no more purpose to the Forester anymore...
The Trailseeker's clear Outback lineage is something that rankles me a bit... despite all the other positives.

The Forester is quite a bit smaller, and a bit cheaper, than the Outback.

 

[Yamazaki]

I mean it's roughly equivalent to a Forester Wilderness. Capable, sure, but not some crazy off-road beast.

The Forester Wilderness doesn't make sense as a vehicle, I wouldn't use that as a comparison for anything except poor marketing decisions. The Outback Wilderness makes the Forester Wilderness irrelevant.

 

[Thebandit]

The Forester Wilderness doesn't make sense as a vehicle, I wouldn't use that as a comparison for anything except poor marketing decisions. The Outback Wilderness makes the Forester Wilderness irrelevant.

.... What? Lol. The Outback is like 9" longer and 2" wider than the Forester. I wild much rather own the Forester than the Outback. I actually got myself the Crosstrek Wilderness instead of either. Does the Outback make the Crosstrek irrelevant?

 

[Yamazaki]

.... What? Lol. The Outback is like 9" longer and 2" wider than the Forester. I wild much rather own the Forester than the Outback. I actually got myself the Crosstrek Wilderness instead of either. Does the Outback make the Crosstrek irrelevant?

I don't think it does.
I guess the way I see things is -
Subaru has three sizes. Ascent = Big; Outback/Forester = Medium; Impreza/Crosstrek = Small.
Since the Outback gets the (much) better engine than the Forester... that's what makes the Forester Wilderness irrelevant. Why not give it the upgraded engine that's in the Outback? Why stick it with the same tired engine that's in the base model? I mean, at least give it the hybrid treatment. The Forester Hybrid is a much better buy than the Forester Wilderness.

It shouldn't need to be said, but all of that is just my opinion. People are allowed to disagree and I am not trying to start any arguments. Just clarifying my position as you appeared to request.

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

There are a lot of R2/Model Y comparisons but they seem like two very different vehicles to me. One is an SUV that can off-road and the other is a slightly upsized Model 3 (sedan). Other comparisons here are also with non-offroad capable EVs (BMW, Mach-E, and Ferrari for some reason...).
In fact, it seems to me that the Trailseeker is really the only other off-roadable vehicle around that price point. So while the videos of the R2 are showing it climbing dirt roads and wading through shallow creeks, the only other EV doing that is the Trailseeker and nobody seems to be thinking of comparing the two.

I understand that a lot of people will probably chime in and say something along the lines of "most people won't take these vehicles off-road anyway, so what does it matter?", but if that were the point then the manufacturers wouldn't try to make them capable off-road. They'd just make another Tesla clone. Manufacturers make off-road capable vehicles for people who want to leave the streets. So those vehicles should be compared with each other appropriately.

I'm going to test drive the Trailseeker later today, and I'll try to report back as much as I can. I already test drove the R2, but was disappointed in how little I was allowed to do in the very short time allotted to me in the test drive. The big thing that sucks about test drives for these off-road vehicles is that we can't take them off-road!

Thoughts?

There are certainly pros and cons to each. Let us know what you think. Here’s an overview of the Trailseeker for those who are interested:

https://www.off-road.com/blog/subar...5-inch-clearance-and-dual-x-mode-from-39-995/

 

[zefram47]

The big thing that sucks about test drives for these off-road vehicles is that we can't take them off-road!

Calling any Subaru an off-roader is laughable, but at least the Trailseeker is an EV, so you don't have to worry about burning up a CVT. But really, few if any of these two are going to see a dirt road let alone a proper off-road trail. There are relatively few of us that even off-road the R1, which is far more capable.

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