Dont mess with the PWS on your EV.

[electruck]

I know there are countless adults with perfect vision walking around as if everyone else should value their safety more that they do and I understand your frustration with them. I also find the artificial noises to be annoying, especially while in a natural setting far from other people.

However, there are a lot of people out there with vision problems which cause them to rely on sound to at least augment their ability to detect threats in addition to the folks who are legally blind and who will rely entirely on sound. Plus, kids can get pretty engrossed in whatever captures their imagination not noticing anything going on around them and they are not as easily seen by drivers. We need to consider all of these folks, too.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I’d be devastated if I injured or killed someone because I disabled a safety feature which could have saved their life. I cannot imagine the guilt I’d feel for the rest of my life over having prioritized eliminating a noise which which I found annoying over the welfare of someone else.

My wife and her Seeing Eye Dog (along with myself) would like to thank you for keeping their safety in mind.

Sponsored

 

[electruck]

I definitely think there is room for refinement of both the requirements and implementations but my family, and many others, are thankful that attempts are being made to address the safety of all pedestrians.

 

[sub]

I can 100% appreciate not wanting to hear the sound. I have enough issue with my ears from my many years of delusion growing up and wanting to be a heavy metal drummer

But it looks like the NHTSA has pretty rigorous data on why and how they chose the specs for these sounds:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/812347-minimumsoundrequirements.pdf

I am just learning about this stuff myself, so just wanted to share. I am no expert on any of this, but it might be worth considering when deciding if the sound is good enough for others to hear.

Does the NHTSA have any data to justify only applying the rule to EVs? Do ICE vehicles not hurt as much when they run you over?

By only having the rule only apply to EV's and not any vehicle that idles quietly I will never believe that the rule has anything to do with safety. Even if there were not any ICE vehicles that idled quieter than the minimum sound requirement for EV's (but there are) specifically saying that only EV's are unsafe when they are quiet undermines their credibility.

 

[lostpacket]

(nonsense)

The focus on P/H/EV was from the law but of course they have data. Numerous studies are what prompted the law (Pedestrian Safety Enhancement Act of 2010), have a look at the wikipedia page I linked earlier. The NHTSA was tasked with implementing the law.

Also the sound is for cars in motion, has nothing to do with idling.

Apparently I linked the wrong PDF earlier though, my bad, that was the environmental assessment.

Here is the actual rule: https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/QuietCar_FinalRule_11142016.pdf

The NHTSA's credibility isn't even remotely in question.

 

[Johny]

In my Volt you can pull a fuse to disable the PWS. Has anyone found the fuse panel yet?

 

[lostpacket]

In my Volt you can pull a fuse to disable the PWS. Has anyone found the fuse panel yet?

Dude. Read the room.

 

[sub]

The focus on P/H/EV was from the law but of course they have data. Numerous studies are what prompted the law (Pedestrian Safety Enhancement Act of 2010), have a look at the wikipedia page I linked earlier. The NHTSA was tasked with implementing the law.

Also the sound is for cars in motion, has nothing to do with idling.

Apparently I linked the wrong PDF earlier though, my bad, that was the environmental assessment.

Here is the actual rule: https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/QuietCar_FinalRule_11142016.pdf

The NHTSA's credibility isn't even remotely in question.

Reading your pdf. I haven't made it through all 300 pages yet, but I am not seeing anything explaining why quiet ICE vehicles are less dangerous than an EV making the same amount of noise. Can you point me to that section? I'm genuinely very curious. Please point me to it if it exists.

But I do see this right up front: "The PSEA requires NHTSA to establish performance requirements for an alert sound that is recognizable as a motor vehicle in operation that allows blind and other pedestrians to detect a nearby electric vehicles or hybrid vehicles operating at lower speeds."

The PSEA was written by politicians, not scientists/engineers. When politicians tell you what the outcome of the study must be it's not really a study. It is reverse engineering a justification for what you are going to do whether the evidence backs the plan or not.

Or are you saying that the NTSA could have fulfilled the requirements of the PSEA by saying that silent vehicles are better/safer? Because that's certainly not how I interpret it.

 

[Zoidz]

If one of YOUR loved ones was injured or killed by an EV with a muffled/defeated PWS, would you be cool with it?

 

[lostpacket]

Reading your pdf. I haven't made it through all 300 pages yet, but I am not seeing anything explaining why quiet ICE vehicles are less dangerous than an EV making the same amount of noise. Can you point me to that section? I'm genuinely very curious. Please point me to it if it exists.

But I do see this right up front: "The PSEA requires NHTSA to establish performance requirements for an alert sound that is recognizable as a motor vehicle in operation that allows blind and other pedestrians to detect a nearby electric vehicles or hybrid vehicles operating at lower speeds."

The PSEA was written by politicians, not scientists/engineers. When politicians tell you what the outcome of the study must be it's not really a study. It is reverse engineering a justification for what you are going to do whether the evidence backs the plan or not.

Or are you saying that the NTSA could have fulfilled the requirements of the PSEA by saying that silent vehicles are better/safer? Because that's certainly not how I interpret it.

The studies that prompted the law the are described in the wikipedia link background section
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_warning_sounds

Here's one: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811204.PDF

In conclusion, this study found that HEVs have a higher incidence rate of pedestrian and bicyclist crashes than do ICE vehicles in certain vehicle maneuvers

What are these "quiet ICE vehicles"?

Also my apologies because you do seem genuinely curious now. But I still dont understand why you are assuming there is so much incompetence or bias around this. They have clearly tried to study this problem objectively and rigorously.

 

[C.R. Rivian]

I know there are countless adults with perfect vision walking around as if everyone else should value their safety more that they do and I understand your frustration with them. I also find the artificial noises to be annoying, especially while in a natural setting far from other people.

However, there are a lot of people out there with vision problems which cause them to rely on sound to at least augment their ability to detect threats in addition to the folks who are legally blind and who will rely entirely on sound. Plus, kids can get pretty engrossed in whatever captures their imagination not noticing anything going on around them and they are not as easily seen by drivers. We need to consider all of these folks, too.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I’d be devastated if I injured or killed someone because I disabled a safety feature which could have saved their life. I cannot imagine the guilt I’d feel for the rest of my life over having prioritized eliminating a noise which which I found annoying over the welfare of someone else.

Well said?In the 3 years of driving my Kia Niro EV, I've noted on a number of occasions that people often need an audible clue to pay attention to what is coming along...think people in parking lots walking while looking at their phones...if I see them, I could honk, but coming between cars, that's a pedestrian roulette situation.

 

[Zoidz]

The PSEA was written by politicians, not scientists/engineers. When politicians tell you what the outcome of the study must be it's not really a study. It is reverse engineering a justification for what you are going to do whether the evidence backs the plan or not.

What? You are *really* spinning this to attempt to justify defeating the PWS. The document explicitly references the organizations involved in providing input. These are not politicians, nor is the NHTSA.

Which politician developed this formula?

"The trade associations representing manufacturers that submitted comments included the International Motorcycle Manufacturers Association (IMMA), the Truck and Engine Manufacturers Association (EMA), the Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA), the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC) and the Organization Internationale DES Constructeurs d' Automobiles (OICA). The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers and Global Automakers submitted a joint comment that is referenced here as the “Alliance/Global” comment.

Such as Toyota Motor North America (Toyota), Volkswagen Group of America (Volkswagen), Porsche Cars North America (Porsche), Ford Motor Company (Ford), American Honda Motor Co. (Honda), Mercedes-Benz USA (Mercedes), General Motors Company (General Motors), Mitsubishi Motors R&D of America (Mitsubishi), Chrysler Group LLC (Chrysler), Navistar, Inc. (Navistar), Nissan North America, Inc. (Nissan) and BMW of North America, LLC (BMW).

The public safety advocacy groups submitting comments to the proposal included National Federal of the Blind (NFB), National Council of State Agencies of the Blind, the Advocates for Highway Safety (the Advocates), Noise Pollution Clearinghouse, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), Safe Kids Worldwide, the World Blind Union, and American Council of the Blind (ACB).

Such as Denso International America, Inc. (Denso) and Hear for Yourself, LLC.

Such as the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, Western Michigan University (Western Michigan), and Accessible Designs for the Blind (ADB).

SAE International

The European Commission Enterprise and Industry Directorate-General (DG Enterprise), and the Disability and Communication Access Board of Hawaii."

 

[Inkedsphynx]

Reading your pdf. I haven't made it through all 300 pages yet, but I am not seeing anything explaining why quiet ICE vehicles are less dangerous than an EV making the same amount of noise. Can you point me to that section? I'm genuinely very curious. Please point me to it if it exists.

But I do see this right up front: "The PSEA requires NHTSA to establish performance requirements for an alert sound that is recognizable as a motor vehicle in operation that allows blind and other pedestrians to detect a nearby electric vehicles or hybrid vehicles operating at lower speeds."

The PSEA was written by politicians, not scientists/engineers. When politicians tell you what the outcome of the study must be it's not really a study. It is reverse engineering a justification for what you are going to do whether the evidence backs the plan or not.

Or are you saying that the NTSA could have fulfilled the requirements of the PSEA by saying that silent vehicles are better/safer? Because that's certainly not how I interpret it.

This is just about the most despicable way to straw-man troll.

Who effing cares. The issue isn't EV vs ICE. It's vehicle vs life. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Other cliches here that totally apply but apparently weren't taught to you.

 

[AllInev]

I’m sure gear guard will show they were not paying attention.
Too bad stupid isn’t illegal!

My daughter is vision impaired and frequently relies on sound at intersections. She’s far from stupid by the way.

 

[Bobthebuilder352]

The speakers are largely to prevent low speed, parking lot, type crashed therefore I think the law should be revised to make bicycles and pedestrians also have a speaker mounted to them.

 

[Taycanfrank]

The speakers are largely to prevent low speed, parking lot, type crashed therefore I think the law should be revised to make bicycles and pedestrians also have a speaker mounted to them.

What are you even talking about? The Rivian is a 7,000 pound vehicle. If it hits you, even at low speed, you can die. Last I checked two pedestrians bumping into each other just causes an "oh, excuse me".

Of all the laws and regulations to complain about people are choosing one that clearly, and effectively, protects our vulnerable population?

Sponsored