Tank Turn-Anyone heard more about this?

[jimcgov3]

I have been told by multiple reps recently that the tank turn feature will be a software update shortly after launch.

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[CommodoreAmiga]

Have you ever attempted a tank turn on pavement? I’m guessing no.

When I was younger I did power-brake burnouts and donuts. If Rivian can't match the durability of 1990's/2000's Toyota/Chevy products then we have much larger concerns.

 

[skyote]

When I was younger I did power-brake burnouts and donuts. If Rivian can't match the durability of 1990's/2000's Toyota/Chevy products then we have much larger concerns.

Apples & oranges. Difference in weight alone is enough to greatly increase the forces at play. And independent suspension is way different than solid rear axle or transaxles in 90s FWDs.

 

[ElectricDan]

I have been told by multiple reps recently that the tank turn feature will be a software update shortly after launch.

This is why I get frustrated. Multiple conversations with CS reps, all with different responses. Available at launch and available with a software update later are 2 very different statements.

Tesla has been kicking the can on plenty of FSD features by being available "after launch" or "later this year," etc for years. Multiple items have never came to fruition at the scale, breadth or on the timeline they have advertised. I do not want to open the door for Rivian to follow suit.

If it's something Rivian was confident enough to advertise, it should be available at launch.

 

[thrill]

This is why I get frustrated. Multiple conversations with CS reps, all with different responses. Available at launch and available with a software update later are 2 very different statements.

Tesla has been kicking the can on plenty of FSD features by being available "after launch" or "later this year," etc for years. Multiple items have never came to fruition at the scale, breadth or on the timeline they have advertised. I do not want to open the door for Rivian to follow suit.

If it's something Rivian was confident enough to advertise, it should be available at launch.

Tesla has never demoed a FSD capability, and they have admitted it won't be capable for an indeterminate amount of time, yet they continue to sell it as a "real soon now" feature in quantity. The Rivian's tank turn capability is demoed and known. I'm guessing they're delaying enabling it because they're trying to figure out how to allow it for "adult use only".

 

[JeremyMKE]

When I was younger I did power-brake burnouts and donuts. If Rivian can't match the durability of 1990's/2000's Toyota/Chevy products then we have much larger concerns.

While I am a fan of personal responsibility I agree with many on this thread that the damage this could cause from forces at such oblique angles on pavement would likely void the warranty.

So as long as owners don't get mad when their choices result in a warranty void, have at it... Unlike historical vehicles Rivian will have significant telemetry from the vehicle and will be significantly more informed when it comes to warranty claims.

I want to drive in my 4th of July parade with a bag of sand (or Costco jug of Palmolive) in the bed and do a tank turn. I don't actually think this will be possible, but I WANT to

 

[ElectricDan]

Tesla has never demoed a FSD capability, and they have admitted it won't be capable for an indeterminate amount of time, yet they continue to sell it as a "real soon now" feature in quantity. The Rivian's tank turn capability is demoed and known. I'm guessing they're delaying enabling it because they're trying to figure out how to allow it for "adult use only".

Tesla demoed FSD, (defined for this discussion as hands free, eyes off road driving, through city streets, stop signs and traffic signals) at their autonomy day almost 2 years ago. Id argue that tesla has demoed FSD far more than Rivian has demoed a tank turn. No one has seen the tank turn in real life. Investors, press and YouTube personalities have had rides in Teslas demoing their FSD during their autonomy day.

Im not saying Tesla had cracked level 5 autonomy. Im saying tesla has demoed a hands free driving capability far extensively than Rivian has demoed the tank turn.

Yes its true what tesla demoed is not available for the masses in their Teslas. I just dont want the same for Rivian either. And that goes for their driver+ too.

 

[Trandall]

Tesla demoed FSD, (defined for this discussion as hands free, eyes off road driving, through city streets, stop signs and traffic signals) at their autonomy day almost 2 years ago.

There is a subtle but very significant difference delineating levels 4-5 autonomy from levels 1-3. That is who is responsible for vehicle operation. The fact that Tesla FSD can usually operate without intervention does not mean level 4. The referenced demo had a legally required safety driver who was required to intervene if necessary if I'm not mistaken I don't have care what Tesla calls their driver assist package it is not level 4. AFAIK Tesla has never claimed to have "eyes off the road" intervention free features. I am a fan of Tesla and I like their approach to solving L4 autonomy, sans lidar, crowdsource info, neural net etc...

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

There is a subtle but very significant difference delineating levels 4-5 autonomy from levels 1-3. That is who is responsible for vehicle operation. The fact that Tesla FSD can usually operate without intervention does not mean level 4. The referenced demo had a legally required safety driver who was required to intervene if necessary if I'm not mistaken I don't have care what Tesla calls their driver assist package it is not level 4. AFAIK Tesla has never claimed to have "eyes off the road" intervention free features. I am a fan of Tesla and I like their approach to solving L4 autonomy, sans lidar, crowdsource info, neural net etc...

In written communications with the DOT, Tesla has consistently stated that FSD will never be more than Level 2.

 

[Trandall]

In written communications with the DOT, Tesla has consistently stated that FSD will never be more than Level 2.

Yet their stock valuation already has level 4 priced in. I already sold my 10 shares but I do hope they achieve level 4.
Back to the topic now... I'm confused about tank turn. My understanding was that the friction and stress on the vehicle would be less than that of youthful burnouts and donuts that CommodorAmiga mentioned because the passenger and driver wheels were turning in opposite directions. I understand their will be friction due to the angle of the tire relative to motion. Am I wrong in my assumption? In practice I can do a donut in a rear wheel drive F-150 on dry pavement without major damage so does this mean that the R1 has less functionality?

 

[electruck]

I'm confused about tank turn. My understanding was that the friction and stress on the vehicle would be less than that of youthful burnouts and donuts that CommodorAmiga mentioned because the passenger and driver wheels were turning in opposite directions. I understand their will be friction due to the angle of the tire relative to motion. Am I wrong in my assumption? In practice I can do a donut in a rear wheel drive F-150 on dry pavement without major damage so does this mean that the R1 has less functionality?

Nobody here has done an engineering analysis of the situation. If you want credible answers you will need to take this up with the Rivian Chief Engineer who suggested things might not go well on dry pavement.

 

[ElectricDan]

There is a subtle but very significant difference delineating levels 4-5 autonomy from levels 1-3. That is who is responsible for vehicle operation. The fact that Tesla FSD can usually operate without intervention does not mean level 4. The referenced demo had a legally required safety driver who was required to intervene if necessary if I'm not mistaken I don't have care what Tesla calls their driver assist package it is not level 4. AFAIK Tesla has never claimed to have "eyes off the road" intervention free features. I am a fan of Tesla and I like their approach to solving L4 autonomy, sans lidar, crowdsource info, neural net etc...

Youre getting away from my point and switching the focus to Tesla's autonomy, how its advertised, rolled out, sold, etc.

The whole point here is they have delayed it, mislead on features, and tell different audiences different things.

Investors they say the model 3, today has all the tech it needs to be level 5 autonomous. Yet at the same time when regulators contact for clarity they say oh no it's never gonna be above a level 2 system.

As a consumer how are you to know which one to believe and whether to make that 10k purchase that seems to be increasing arbitrarily over time?

Back to my point. I find that communication and representation absolutely terrible. I hate that Tesla does it. I do not want Rivian to do it.

However based on the conversations with CS I feel rivian may go down the same path, and that frustrates me. One day rivian says the tankturn will be available at launch on all 4 motor rivians, the next day someone drom CS says it will be in a OTA update after launch, and the next an engineer reveals something else.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Investors they say the model 3, today has all the tech it needs to be level 5 autonomous. Yet at the same time when regulators contact for clarity they say oh no it's never gonna be above a level 2 system.

As a consumer how are you to know which one to believe and whether to make that 10k purchase that seems to be increasing arbitrarily over time?

Easy decision, for me. Tesla can get away with telling the public almost anything, but they get in trouble for lying to regulators. Since they insist FSD is only ever intended to be L2 to the DOT, then that is the statement that is closer to the truth.

Back to my point. I find that communication and representation absolutely terrible. I hate that Tesla does it. I do not want Rivian to do it.

I don't think it's fair to say Tesla and Rivian are similar in how they communicate. Tesla has a history of bold claims and they never deliver as-promised. Rivian looks to be on track to deliver on their June promise. Tesla over-sells features (FSD is only Level 2) but Rivian seems to be conservative when they talk about features.

However based on the conversations with CS I feel rivian may go down the same path, and that frustrates me. One day rivian says the tankturn will be available at launch on all 4 motor rivians, the next day someone drom CS says it will be in a OTA update after launch, and the next an engineer reveals something else.

At least tank-turn isn't a paid extra.

Just wait until June and all will be revealed. You're not being asked to commit any money without the info -- unlike Tesla, who is taking a non-refundable $10k for features that likely will never be given to those owners.

 

[ElectricDan]

At least tank-turn isn't a paid extra.

Just wait until June and all will be revealed. You're not being asked to commit any money without the info -- unlike Tesla, who is taking a non-refundable $10k for features that likely will never be given to those owners.

We assume we're not being asked to commit any money without the info. My fear is the early reservation orders will soon be asked to finalize their order, sight unseen, or lose their position/LE.

And if im being completely honest, I wouldn't be afraid of betting a little coin that we never get the tank turn feature.

Again, all this would be resolved if rivian was a bit more forthcoming.

 

[Trandall]

ElectricDan, we're in agreement Tesla is masterful at overpromising and coming out unscathed and as a preorder holder hope Rivian doesn't emulate this trait. Vehicle automation is not well understood by casual drivers and gets a bad name by being mischaracterized, mostly by Tesla. Didn't intend for you to bear the brunt.
Back to topic.. I do think Rivian will deliver tank turn, maybe limited by surface conditions or location. I think this debate is more a reflection of poor communication.

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