R1T Max Pack + Dual Motor range update from Rivian: 335, 360 and 400 miles range

[Supratachophobia]

Trust me they aren't. Unless you are looking at that data with a factory scanner you aren't seeing the truth. It's showing you 100% of what they are allowing it to be charged to in the BMS. The R1T uses 2170 cells, a single 2170 cell has 18.23 wh. The large pack consists of 7,776 cells do the math and it comes out to almost 142kwh. The batteries are always slightly bigger in terms of true total capacity than what they advertise.
The factory sticker I've seen on a taycan battery that i repaired that shows the serial number and engineering data actually shows the battery in that cars true capacity is over 100kwh, but they advertise 93kwh and only let you use 87kwh.

That's great info, I didn't know they were using a 21700 with that many w/h.

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[zipzag]

I'm predicting that the max pack R1T EPA range will be 440 miles. The current offered spec is sad, so I'm going with positivity.

Two reasons: 1) Lightning largest pack is a $10K, +90 miles, +33kwh option. 2) Rivian not adding cells to make max pack is so far from their original talk of cells under the seconds row and even in the bed. Planning for a longer pack for the R1T is likely part of pack production and vehicle assembly.

Rivian asking $10K for just a few more real world highway miles is a risky move. With that choice I can't imagine essentially all the long term max pack order holders feeling deceived.

 

[Joel]

I'm predicting that the max pack R1T EPA range will be 440 miles. The current offered spec is sad, so I'm going with positivity.

Two reasons: 1) Lightning largest pack is a $10K, +90 miles, +33kwh option. 2) Rivian not adding cells to make max pack is so far from their original talk of cells under the seconds row and even in the bed. Planning for a longer pack for the R1T is likely part of pack production and vehicle assembly.

Rivian asking $10K for just a few more real world highway miles is a risky move. With that choice I can't imagine essentially all the long term max pack order holders feeling deceived.

At the current offering it’s not worth it. in the routes I drive it looks like a 10-15 minute charge savings every 6 hours.

 

[NineElectrics]

Rivian asking $10K for just a few more real world highway miles is a risky move. With that choice I can't imagine essentially all the long term max pack order holders feeling deceived.

I agree, but I suspect Rivian is screwed battery constrained, so they have no choice. 33 kWh is 1/4 of a car's battery. At $10K, that's only $40K worth of non-max-pack vehicle. Assuming the same margins for battery as for the rest of the car, they make less money selling a Max Pack than they would otherwise, because the extra battery in the Max Pack model limits the number of vehicles they could otherwise make and then sell. 1/4 of a normally spec'd Rivian is $22.5K. More than $10K. Further, they need to move more cars to get volume discounts on their other parts and push up margin.

That's why there's very little additional battery in the Max Pack now. I think they should, at some point, introduce a second gear like the Taycan has, and use the increased range from that to reduce the battery in their vehicles even more.

They really screwed up by not locking in aggressive battery supply contracts. With the EPA's new aggressive carbon-restriction plans, combined with Europe's, there may be no batteries to be found in volume, at good prices, anywhere for the next fifteen years. Rivian may be forced to buy cheap batteries from China, mined and built using labor practices I don't want to think about.

That's why they're bait and switching here and pissing off everyone. They want to make products that, it turns out, can't be manufactured in volume profitably. Classic start up move: promise the moon in order to get attention, pay the consequences later. It worked on me. I'm getting a great deal on my cars, all things considered, but not great for Rivian investors.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I think they should, at some point, introduce a second gear like the Taycan has,

Efficiency matrix of the Enduro motor optimizes for highway use. Adding a second gear would get you nothing for typical use.

 

[NineElectrics]

Efficiency matrix of the Enduro motor optimizes for highway use. Adding a second gear would get you nothing for typical use.

Oh, that's really interesting. I'd like to read more about that; do you have a source?

 

[Guy]

I thought the margin would be good for the max pack since if we take a conservative $150 per kWh and a 30kWh pack (down from the original 45) you get to $4500 plus som other costs - still leaves a healthy profit from the $10K cost.

 

[zipzag]

I agree, but I suspect Rivian is screwed battery constrained, so they have no choice. 33 kWh is 1/4 of a car's battery. At $10K, that's only $40K worth of non-max-pack vehicle. Assuming the same margins for battery as for the rest of the car, they make less money selling a Max Pack than they would otherwise, because the extra battery in the Max Pack model limits the number of vehicles they could otherwise make and then sell. 1/4 of a normally spec'd Rivian is $22.5K. More than $10K. Further, they need to move more cars to get volume discounts on their other parts and push up margin.

That's why there's very little additional battery in the Max Pack now. I think they should, at some point, introduce a second gear like the Taycan has, and use the increased range from that to reduce the battery in their vehicles even more.

They really screwed up by not locking in aggressive battery supply contracts. With the EPA's new aggressive carbon-restriction plans, combined with Europe's, there may be no batteries to be found in volume, at good prices, anywhere for the next fifteen years. Rivian may be forced to buy cheap batteries from China, mined and built using labor practices I don't want to think about.

That's why they're bait and switching here and pissing off everyone. They want to make products that, it turns out, can't be manufactured in volume profitably. Classic start up move: promise the moon in order to get attention, pay the consequences later. It worked on me. I'm getting a great deal on my cars, all things considered, but not great for Rivian investors.

A small hope is that the CFO said that power electronics were the primary constraint to production (IIRC). So maybe batteries are not a primary constraint. Also, fewer NMC van builds provides more R1 batteries.

A physically larger R1T pack would also allow LFP more easily in the R1T. So space for two more modules would benefit both the high end and low end.

I wonder if there is an LFP variant that is primarily inferior to NMC in volume density but not weight?

Rivian announcing 400 miles and doing ~440 is the choice I would make in their situation. They are super focused on production/delivery flow and the chance of messing up R1T large pack orders with a 440 mile max pack announcement is significant. The move I wouldn't make is trying to sell a $10K max pack upgrade that provides 35 extra miles on AT tires.

If the 400 mile max pack is reality it will be the first dick move they have made. Everything else is situational/unavoidable IMO. (Sorry, but I would not sell Rivians far from service centers. I realize some order holders feel screwed, but I would make the same choice in Rivian's situation).

The best argument against the above logic is perhaps the 390 mile R1S max pack announcement.

 

[Bmitch24]

If the 400 mile max pack is reality it will be the first dick move they have made. Everything else is situational/unavoidable IMO. (Sorry, but I would not sell Rivians far from service centers. I realize some order holders feel screwed, but I would make the same choice in Rivian's situation).

Wasn't the max pack always supposed to be 400 miles?

 

[zipzag]

Exhibit A for planning a larger pack. Doesn't mean they haven't changed the plan of course.

 

[zipzag]

Wasn't the max pack always supposed to be 400 miles?

Yes, and a 180 (185) mWh pack capacity.

 

[Bmitch24]

Yes, and a 180 (185) mWh pack capacity.

I am a bit later to the party than some of y'all. I had thought the battery size was extrapolated using 135 kWh and 300 as a baseline. By the time I put my reservation in battery size for the max wasn't listed.

 

[zipzag]

I am a bit later to the party than some of y'all. I had thought the battery size was extrapolated using 135 kWh and 300 as a baseline. By the time I put my reservation in battery size for the max wasn't listed.

You can find this article link earlier in this thread::

https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/7/2...ance-dual-motor-availability-max-pack-battery

 

[FLTANK]

As another 2+ year max pack reservation holdout my initial reaction was similar to most others who have posted here in being slightly disappointed in the latest stated dual motor/max pack ranges. Yes 400 miles is what was promised and they are delivering that with road tires but so many other factors have also changed over time including the increased range of the Large pack. At the very least I would have loved to see 400 miles of range with the AT wheel setup which to be should be the baseline assumption for this truck.
That said, it feels to me like Rivian is playing a bit of a game right now in that the disappointment most folks have expressed will likely push some reservation holders who have been on the fence into purchasing from the existing shop inventory which is best case for Rivian. I think zipzag is correct in that actual EPA mileage will be closer to 440 which more than justifies the price delta, but given we are still months away from taking delivery of a dual/max pack truck anyway, Rivian is technically delivering on their promised range but also indirectly encouraging all those who are disappointed into switching to a more readily available and more profitable configuration for the company. I’m going to remain optimistic and hold on a bit longer but definitely feel everyone’s frustration on this.

 

[Joel]

As another 2+ year max pack reservation holdout my initial reaction was similar to most others who have posted here in being slightly disappointed in the latest stated dual motor/max pack ranges. Yes 400 miles is what was promised and they are delivering that with road tires but so many other factors have also changed over time including the increased range of the Large pack. At the very least I would have loved to see 400 miles of range with the AT wheel setup which to be should be the baseline assumption for this truck.
That said, it feels to me like Rivian is playing a bit of a game right now in that the disappointment most folks have expressed will likely push some reservation holders who have been on the fence into purchasing from the existing shop inventory which is best case for Rivian. I think zipzag is correct in that actual EPA mileage will be closer to 440 which more than justifies the price delta, but given we are still months away from taking delivery of a dual/max pack truck anyway, Rivian is technically delivering on their promised range but also indirectly encouraging all those who are disappointed into switching to a more readily available and more profitable configuration for the company. I’m going to remain optimistic and hold on a bit longer but definitely feel everyone’s frustration on this.

I am a hold out since 2018. I am hoping the mileage goes up as well. Otherwise I will jump to and Quad/Large. That could be what Rivian is hoping for in reality.

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