Ford/Tesla Deal: Access to Superchargers, adapter coming, future EVs will have NACS (Tesla) port

[Goose]

It really is not. Tesla stans just keep repeating it trying to make it true. If you live in an area with bad coverage it's because you are an outlier in your area with your interest in EVs, and your state is openly hostile to them

I am no Tesla or Elon fan, but you can’t argue that the supercharger network is more robust than CCS for North America.

As for the outlier comment, not all of us only drive through urban/affluent areas. Eastern and Western NC is very rural and CCS charging infrastructure just sucks. Even around Asheville which is notorious for its hippies. NC is home to multiple battery manufacturers, Kempower is building its NA headquarters in Durham, NC. CCS manufacturers just don’t want to build in rural areas, it’s not profitable. There hasn’t really been a need to build chargers in these areas until EV trucks came along. People could juice up in a city/at home then make the ~150 mile trip to the coast. Now that EV towing is real and the range impacts are obvious we need more on route chargers in rural areas. Tesla already thought of that, Charge Point Operators have not and it will take them years to build out infrastructure.

What’s funny is as you were typing your response yesterday EA reported a massive service loss.

*edit* my comments are in now way a dig at the CCS connector, I have nothing against the plug. I actually wish NA would wholly transition to CCS, just like USB C should be the only standard for small devices.

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[Dirtman16]

Curious. As Rivians are purchased by people other than early adopters it seems they
will consider all brands as their available CCS network and I assume they all show up on the Rivan trip planner. Uptime matters on the whole CCS network as it ruins the image when owners talk to their friends and potential new owners about their general charging experience.

EA/Electrify America seems to be the largest and statistically would be used the most.

Is there better options than PlugShare to see all CCS chargers and their companies?
[I see you can download a CSV by brand from https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html]

EA:

fastcharger.info

You can sort by provider, power level, etc. On the map.

 

[scottf200]

fastcharger.info

You can sort by provider, power level, etc. On the map.

Thanks much! That is an excellent share. I'm a long time $upporter and follower of a similar Tesla Supercharger site https://supercharge.info/changes (charge not charge'r').

The Tesla related one added some excellent filter criteria fairly recently.

fastcharger.info could really benefit from those filters as well so you just look for DCFC chargers (120+ kW) with >= 4 stalls/ports as an example.

 

[evhelphub]

It sounds like we can all universally agree Rivian should pursue getting Tesla API integration/an NACS adapter and that would be a benefit for us all.

I do want to add two thoughts:

• It is certainly not just EA that has issues. There's a brand new EVgo station down the street from my house. Two stations are already inoperable and the other two don't come close to full output, even when no one else is there. I've also used various Chargepoint locations and I've never gotten full speed on any of them. I would actually say that EA has been the best for us so far.
  
  
• However - a couple of weeks ago I started a thread about RAN experiences. Feedback across the board is that it is reliable and charges at expected speeds. I have yet to see/use one but if they can scale, who knows, perhaps Rivian will be the leader in the CCS space.

 

[bgoldber88]

Yep, basically what I said. From a high level, Rivian is executing their RAN rollout smooth. They will be the first large scale rollout of a Tesla experience. Tesla needed something to basically stop magic dock without being the bad guy. Now they’ve “made news” and halted the consolidation of ev to one standard and temporarily kept tesla network somewhat stable.
Guys, the problem isn’t the plug. Good implementations of CCS exist. When you use a good charger you don’t give a crap about the minor weight difference for the 2 seconds you hold it (not to mention advantages of CCS). This is 100% about control

Yeah I mean kempower and others are having a lot of success in Europe with CCS, as is Tesla! There needs to be one standard. Tesla is the bad actor here, and Ford is enabling. Sure, Tesla charging port is smaller but at the end of the day who cares at all? It’s delivering electricity and the hole is covered when it’s not. We need a national standard like the EU so that every EV is compatible with every charging network. The more ports there are, the more expensive it is to build chargers for companies as well. I say this as a former Tesla owner, but NACS needs to go for global standardization. This is ridiculous and imo embarrassing for the automakers which are usually good at standards.

 

[scottf200]

However - a couple of weeks ago I started a thread about RAN experiences. Feedback across the board is that it is reliable and charges at expected speeds. I have yet to see/use one but if they can scale, who knows, perhaps Rivian will be the leader in the CCS space.

One issue with the RAN is how they setup the power_cabinets and dispensers (ports/stalls). This matters in the future when EVs are super common.

300 kW power_cabinet share power across 3 stalls so you either 300*_kW, 150_kW, or 100_kW (* not 300 yet)

In Tesla's supercharges they are now connecting the power_cabinets and can share 500 kW.

kW sharing details: Branden Flasch is in the charging industry and knows his stuff. I watch on x1.75

 

[evhelphub]

One issue with the RAN is how they setup the power_cabinets and dispensers (ports/stalls). This matters in the future when EVs are super common.

300 kW power_cabinet share power across 3 stalls so you either 300*_kW, 150_kW, or 100_kW (* not 300 yet)

In Tesla's supercharges they are now connecting the power_cabinets and can share 500 kW.

kW sharing details: Branden Flasch is in the charging industry and knows his stuff. I watch on x1.75

Eek.

Well, I think long story short we need access to Tesla SCs. Let's get that adapter RJ!

 

[docwhiz]

I do acknowledge that US CCS1 charging has problems and that some of that is due to lackluster implementation by EA, EVGo, etc. but there is an additional problem which is the CCS1 protocol itself.

It seems that the CCS protocol is fundamentally flawed, poorly designed and ambiguous and the original documents are not even published anymore. The CCS1 "standard" is a bogged together poorly defined implementation of two different standards. This leads to "creative" implementation by various manufacturers (on both the charger side and the vehicle side). The result is frequent odd behavior.

 

[Yossarian]

I do acknowledge that US CCS1 charging has problems and that some of that is due to lackluster implementation by EA, EVGo, etc. but there is an additional problem which is the CCS1 protocol itself.

It seems that the CCS protocol is fundamentally flawed, poorly designed and ambiguous and the original documents are not even published anymore. The CCS1 "standard" is a bogged together poorly defined implementation of two different standards. This leads to "creative" implementation by various manufacturers (on both the charger side and the vehicle side). The result is frequent odd behavior.

My fist reaction on learning this, is the same as that of the Sicilian Vizzini when he found that the Dread Pirate Roberts was able to scale the cliff after being cut from the rope: "Inconceivable!"

This would seem to imply that every time you plug into a public CCS charger, it's little more than a crapshoot that it will work. There are already plenty of what I used to think were hyperbolic tales of non-Tesla network charging woe. I assumed that most were typical interwebs venting, and discounted them accordingly. If there really is no reasonably universal standard protocol for the operation of the CCS connector, perhaps there's more truth to the venting than I thought.

Hopefully, there's an EV Inigo Montoya out there to set that Vizzini reaction straight.

 

[Mysta]

I think someone on Twitter articulated the argument well.

Would you rather use a Tesla SC with CCS or EA with NACS.

 

[VSG]

Well, as long as we're on the subject of the Princess Bride, when talking about the "North American Charging Standard", I do not think that word means what most of you think it means.

NACS is absolutely NOT an open standard. It has nothing in common with any open standard at all. Calling this a "standard", and claiming it's a "North American" standard, is presumptuous at best. This is just another case of Musk trying to manipulate the market for his own personal benefit.

If Tesla cared about improving the national charging infrastructure, they could do that in an instant. The Magic Dock connectors seem to work and according to Tesla are quick and easy retrofits. They could probably pay for themselves in a few days given that Tesla is free to set the rates to whatever they need to for quick return of their capital outlay. In the six months since the "NACS" was announced, they could have done this, right? Certainly easier to retrofit than it was to install 10,000 chargers stations in that same time period.

But clearly Tesla can make a lot more money by selling adapters to 1 million EV owners rather than retrofitting some 10k supercharger stations.

And clearly Tesla can make a lot more money by controlling a key part of the charging infrastructure and getting a cut from every auto manufacturer and from every charger manufacturer (and probably a cut of every payment processed through their proprietary system). Even as their market share of EVs drops (because the now ~100 competing models necessarily take an increasing share of the EV market), they will be able to grow revenue from a proprietary charger network.

And clearly keeping the Supercharger network proprietary is a competitive advantage in other ways, allowing them to capture a greater percentage of those switching from ICE vehicles and anxious because of all the overblown FUD around other charging networks.

If Tesla Superchargers are truly superior in all ways, then by opening up their network they will blow away the competition. That's the free market at its best, and that is best for the consumers. So why not do that? Tesla should add the Magic Docks everywhere and let everyone choose.

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

The problem with the Tesla superchargers is that they are all designed (except for one or two stalls at some sites) for back in charging with a driver side rear charge port. Will not work very well if large numbers of non Tesla start utilizing them heavily.

All chargers should IMO be pull through chargers. That setup is optimal for charging not only multiple brand EV but also for charging when you have a trailer attached. Gas stations figured this out decades ago.

 

[SANZC02]

Just a footnote to think about here as well. Tesla had issues when they first started building out the network and over time seem to have it dialed in pretty well.

Let the other players catch up, first Tesla SC opened back in 2012. EA, currently the largest CCS network in the US did not open their first station until 2018.

Tesla is in their 12th year, EA in their 6th…

 

[Dark-Fx]

If Tesla cared about improving the national charging infrastructure, they could do that in an instant.

When Tesla said they would be converting the underutilized stations first, everyone could identify it as a money grab.

 

[rydb]

Its not a bad thing. Just pointing out that Tesla driver pulled into the parking lot and had a choice and decided to use the EA station instead of the SC. If I believed all the hype on here regarding the Tesla network there is no good reason that would happen.

might have just been wanting to try out their CCS adapter. I've seen some Teslas pull in to charge at EA chargers and say they were just making sure it worked.

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