GM adopts Tesla's NACS standard! Munro begs Rivian to switch

[VSG]

An open standard requires that an independent entity have control over certifications that allow interoperability.

Specifically, all IP required for the implementation of the standard needs to be relinquished to the standards body, and the copyright and trademark on the standard needs to be controlled by the standards body. The standards body has a defined process for modifying and improving the standard, and all the stakeholders have a say in any changes. That guarantees a degree of backwards compatibility and expected lifetime of any implementation. One company can't just introduce a new feature and obsolete all the old implementations. And Tesla would NEVER just obsolete an implementation, right? I mean, my Tesla Roadster can use all the supercharges just like every other Tesla, right?

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[Grabs10]

So all GM and Ford dealerships will becoming public charging spots for all NACS equipped vehicles as they build out their network. Now if Rivian jumped on board and offered NACS connectors the network of charging just gets bigger for everyone. This will speed adoption of EV’s of all brands and Tesla to grow the NACS network together.

I have a CCS connector I carry in my Tesla that I can use to charge at the CCS networks. So I can easily charge on those high speeds as well.

Rivian!!! Hurry up and adopt the NACS and improve your product!!!! Adapters are readily available to charge a Rivian on CCS if it was NACS if equipped. Adapters to charge a current CCS Rivian on a DC NACS network not so much…

Rivian you are going to get so far left behind by sticking with a CCS connector on your vehicles.

 

[DuoRivians]

Specifically, all IP required for the implementation of the standard needs to be relinquished to the standards body, and the copyright and trademark on the standard needs to be controlled by the standards body. The standards body has a defined process for modifying and improving the standard, and all the stakeholders have a say in any changes. That guarantees a degree of backwards compatibility and expected lifetime of any implementation. One company can't just introduce a new feature and obsolete all the old implementations. And Tesla would NEVER just obsolete an implementation, right? I mean, my Tesla Roadster can use all the supercharges just like every other Tesla, right?

No one can trust Tesla, and even if they could, no one should be in a spot to have to. Exactly.

It’s the entire premise of open standards. The fact that Tesla fanboys casually overlook this, says more about their fiefdom than anything

 

[izgoy]

The NACS connector isn’t the same thing as the access to the Tesla superchargers.

Other DC charging networks can install NACS handles and use the NACS protocol (perhaps along with CCS1 handles and CCS protocol) since NACS is now open for anyone to use.

So, NACS can be an open standard, and Tesla can still retain control over which brands get access to the Tesla supercharger network. Tesla stalls don’t have a screen or a way to initiate a payment at the stall with a credit card. Therefore, only those EV brands authorized by Tesla can use the NACS connector at a Tesla Supercharger network, utilizing plug-and-charge.

It’s likely that Tesla will dictate the location of the charging port to give certain makes (and perhaps even certain models) access to the Tesla superchargers. The location of the charging port will have to be either rear driver side or front passenger side.

Right now, ID.4, Rivian, Ioniq5, EV9, etc. don’t qualify. They will not get access to the Tesla superchargers even if they decide to go with the NACS connector unless they place the NACS port in the proper location. They can use the NACS charhing port at non-Tesla DC chargers, though, If these networks install NACS handles.

The likelihood of an EV brand going with a NACS charging port in the wrong location is next to zero, but, theoretically, it’s quite possible. So, Tesla doesn’t maintain control over the NACS charging port in non-Tesla EVs, but it will dictate the location of such a port for the EV brand to gain access to the Tesla Supercharger network.

The best solution for Rivian is to maintain the CCS1 charging port on the driver front side and add a NACS charging port on the passenger front side. Rivian should announce immediately a retrofit on the existing vehicles being built and come up with a way to retrofit the older vehicles (maybe at the owner’s expense). Otherwise, those of us waiting for our Rivians will get our turn much sooner than we expected, as many of those whose deliveries are about to commence will bail out due to no NACS on their expensive Rivians.

 

[DuoRivians]

The NACS connector and access to the Tesla superchargers is not the same thing. Other DC charging networks can install NACS handles and use the NACS protocol (perhaps along with CCS1 handles and CCS protocol). So, NACS can be an open standard, and Tesla can still retain control of which brands get access to the Tesla supercharger network. Tesla stalls don’t have a screen or a way to initiate payment at a stall. Therefore, only those EV brands authorized by Tesla can use the NACS connector at a Tesla Supercharger network, utilizing plug-and-charge.

It’s likely that Tesla will dictate the location of the charging port to give certain makes (and perhaps even certain models) access to the Tesla superchargers. The location of the charging port will have to rear driver driver side or front passenger side.

Right now, ID.4, Rivian, Ioniq5, EV9, etc. don’t qualify. They will not get access to the Tesla superchargers even if they decide to go with the NACS connector unless they place the NACS port in the proper location. They can use the NACS charhing port at non-Tesla DV chargers, though, If these networks install NACS handles.

The likelihood of an EV brand going with a NACS charging port in the wrong location is next to zero, but, theoretically, it’s quite possible. So, Tesla doesn’t maintain control the NACS charging port in non-Tesla EVs, but it will dictate the location of such a port for the EV brand to gain access to the Tesla Supercharger network.

The best solution for Rivian is to maintain the CCS1 charging port on the driver front side and add a NACS charging port on the passenger front side. Rivian should announce immediately a retrofit on the existing vehicles being built and come up with a way to retrofit the older vehicles (maybe at the owner’s expense). Otherwise, those of us waiting for our Rivian will get our turn much sooner than we expected, as many of those whose deliveries are about to commende will bail out due to no NACS on their expensive Rivian’s.

So, let me guess this straight.

Tesla to oems: “Install our proprietary plug at these approved locations on your car, or you can’t use our superchargers…”

Basically, Tesla is using their IP and market position to dictate what other companies can do or else…

That’s seems like juicy pickings by the DOJ antitrust group!

 

[opnwide]

Story of my life…

 

[Autolycus]

So, are you saying that Rivian blocking other EV brands from its DC chargers means that CCS1 is not a standard and also that Rivian is acting anti-competitively?

On the first point: That's a pretty classic logical modal fallacy. Rivian has no say at all in whether VW or Ford or Hyundai puts a CCS1 port on their vehicle. They have no say at all in whether EA or EVGo or Chargepoint or Tesla builds a charger using CCS1. They cannot change CCS standards in any way unilaterally.

On the second part: Rivian doesn't have anywhere near a market dominant position for either vehicles or charging stations. They have fewer RAN chargers than EA has chargers in just California. Even at full build-out, RAN will have fewer stations than EA, EVGo, and Chargepoint each have and will be completely dwarfed by Tesla. Because they have no market control, they definitionally cannot act anti-competitively in any meaningful context.

Also, Rivian has repeatedly said they'll open up RAN access to all cars in the future. Because CCS1 is a legitimate open standard, that means truly opening to all vehicles with a CCS1 port. It may require Rivian's app to start a charging session and pay for it, but any car with a CCS1 port that meets the standard, as defined by CharIN, IEC, and SAE, will be able to use the RAN at some point in the future. They won't be able to say, "nah, Ford and Hyundai cars can use a RAN charger, but get those Porsches out of here!"

 

[NY_Rob]

Elon: "All Your Charge Ports Are Belong To Us!!" ?

 

[izgoy]

So, let me guess this straight.

Tesla to oems: “Install our proprietary plug at these approved locations on your car, or you can’t use our superchargers…”

Basically, Tesla is using their IP and market position to dictate what other companies can do or else…

That’s seems like juicy pickings by the DOJ antitrust group!

You can’t be serious. No one is making anyone do anything.

Did you know that Lightning accessories must be certified by Apple? Have you heard of MFi? No one makes anyone use Apple iPhones, but if you do, you have to comply with Apple’s requirements to plug something into an Apple iPhone.

You want to plug your EV in a Tesla supercharger? Then you must comply with the way you are required to park so as not to block two charging stalls. Hence, you have to have the charging port in the proper location on your vehicle. Otherwise, drive to an EA charging location and charge there. You can still use a NACS connector at the EA charging location if you so fancy. Tesla won’t dictate to you what kind of DC charging receptacle you want to have in your EV. If you want to have a NACS one, you can do it without getting a Tesla permission.

 

[LevelHeaded]

Yay, fragmentation

Just what a nascent movement needs

 

[NineElectrics]

Rivian will eschew Supercharging so that they can provide an “integrated charger experience.“

 

[COdogman]

You can’t be serious. No one is making anyone do anything.

Did you know that Lightning accessories must be certified by Apple? Have you heard of MFi? No one makes anyone use Apple iPhones, but if you do, you have to comply with Apple’s requirements to plug something into an Apple iPhone.

You want to plug your EV in a Tesla supercharger? Then you must comply with the way you are required to park so as not to block two charging stalls. Hence, you have to have the charging port in the proper location on your vehicle. Otherwise, drive to an EA charging location and charge there. You can still use a NACS connector at the EA charging location if you so fancy. Tesla won’t dictate to you what kind of DC charging receptacle you want to have in your EV. If you want to have a NACS one, you can do it without getting a Tesla permission.

Not all lightning accessories are MFi certified. The better ones are, but many are not.

 

[izgoy]

So, let me guess this straight.

Tesla to oems: “Install our proprietary plug at these approved locations on your car, or you can’t use our superchargers…”

Basically, Tesla is using their IP and market position to dictate what other companies can do or else…

That’s seems like juicy pickings by the DOJ antitrust group!

You can’t be serious. No one is making anyone do anything.

Dis you know that Lightning accessories must be certified by Apple? Have you heard of MFi? No one makes anyone use Apple iPhones, but if you do, you have to comply with Apple’s requirements to plug something into an Apple iPhone.

You want to plug your EV in a Tesla supercharger, comply with the way you are required to park so as not to block two charging stalls. Hence, you have to have a port in the proper location on your vehicle. Otherwise, drive to an EA charging

 

[izgoy]

Rivian has no say at all in whether VW or Ford or Hyundai puts a CCS1 port on their vehicle. They have no say at all in whether EA or EVGo or Chargepoint or Tesla builds a charger using CCS1. They cannot change CCS standards in any way unilaterally.

And neither does Tesla with the NACS. Tesla doesn’t control who can use this connector. It opened the specification up for anyone to use.

 

[DuoRivians]

You can’t be serious. No one is making anyone do anything.

Did you know that Lightning accessories must be certified by Apple? Have you heard of MFi? No one makes anyone use Apple iPhones, but if you do, you have to comply with Apple’s requirements to plug something into an Apple iPhone.

You want to plug your EV in a Tesla supercharger? Then you must comply with the way you are required to park so as not to block two charging stalls. Hence, you have to have the charging port in the proper location on your vehicle. Otherwise, drive to an EA charging location and charge there. You can still use a NACS connector at the EA charging location if you so fancy. Tesla won’t dictate to you what kind of DC charging receptacle you want to have in your EV. If you want to have a NACS one, you can do it without getting a Tesla permission.

For all these reasons, NACS isn’t an open standard.

If it were, if a car has a working NACS plug receiver anywhere on the car, the charger must work on it.

If the Apple Lightning cable receiver were on an Android phone, it doesn’t matter where it is on the Android phone. It must work.

This is contrary to your statement: “NACS can be an open standard, and Tesla can still retain control over which brands get access to the Tesla supercharger network.”

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