Q3 2024 Production / Delivery Numbers… Not good

[Hereforthesnacks]

I think growth is asking a lot when even Tesla demand is down and they have much cheaper cars. The greater market has seen contraction mostly across the board. Keeping the same in a down market is growth.

Sure. But some makers are up. Kia is up. Polestar is up.

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[Donald Stanfield]

Sure. But some makers are up. Kia is up. Polestar is up.

Kia is a value manufacturer and the same economic pressure that is suppressing the premium segment is boosting the value segment. So Kia being up is confirmation of what I’m saying not a contradiction.

Polestar doesn’t sell many vehicles in the US to start with so increasing sales don’t mean a whole lot. Besides they are artificially priced thanks to Chinese government subsidies.

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

Kia is a value manufacturer and the same economic pressure that is suppressing the premium segment is boosting the value segment. So Kia being up is confirmation of what I’m saying not a contradiction.

Polestar doesn’t sell many vehicles in the US to start with so increasing sales don’t mean a whole lot. Besides they are artificially priced thanks to Chinese government subsidies.

Driving a Polestar is like driving a bowl of plain cheerios.

 

[mkhuffman]

Profit gross margin is a form of profit. If you are going to accuse someone of spreading fake news, at least be more specific in your own post.

Nobody, nobody expects Rivian to be profitable this year or next year. At least nobody I have read, including Rivian's own statements. The expectation is they need higher volume production from a less expensive vehicle to generate enough contribution margin to cover overhead expenses. They may need a second plant to do that - maybe. Probably.

For now they really need to get the R1 line cash flow positive (the contribution margin), because that will mean increasing production quantity increases the cash the company has to cover their indirect expenses, as well as future investments.

It won't mean they are profitable, but it will mean they have a path to survive (or a path to an acquisition). That is what they said they can achieve this year, and I am crossing all my fingers and toes hoping they deliver on what they promised.

 

[evguy]

Some will, but I think most won't. The vehicles are so very different. I'd never consider a Model Y, but I'd definitely consider an R2.


Well, it's a good thing that California is just one out of 50 states then, huh? How did the R1S do in the other 49 states?

Rivian didn't quite make this list:
https://www.kbb.com/best-cars/most-popular-suvs/

R1S was the best-selling SUV in its category (large premium) in the world's fifth largest economy. The other 49 will catch up as national charging infrastructure matures and macro conditions improve. Your list is full of legacy vehicles that start at much lower price points, and no one expects R1S to compete with them. That's what R2 and R3 are for.

 

[White Shadow]

R1S was the best-selling SUV in its category (large premium) in the world's fifth largest economy. The other 49 will catch up as national charging infrastructure matures and macro conditions improve. Your list is full of legacy vehicles that start at much lower price points, and no one expects R1S to compete with them. That's what R2 and R3 are for.

My comment was based upon the claim that the R1S was the "most popular" SUV. Here's the quote: "....The R1S is the most popular SUV, period, in many target markets."

There was no qualifiers about just California or large premium per se. Ironically, the Rivian R1S is neither large or premium as far as I'm concerned. It's a midsize electric SUV and there's not all that much premium about it. Certainly not premium in terms of a Land Rover, for example. Hell, even the upper tier Grand Cherokees are far more premium. The only thing premium about an R1S is the price tag. Features-wise, it's beaten by less expensive SUV.

As far as the list I posted, they are the top selling SUVs, which is exactly what my comment was about. Other than the EV vs ICE thing, the R1S does in fact compete with some of them. Maybe not a Rav4 or CR-V, but the other midsize SUVs are certainly a competitor with the R1S. If I don't buy an R1S in the next year or two, I'll almost certainly buy a new Grand Cherokee instead. Why? Because The R1S is already the only thing electric that's similar to a Grand Cherokee and that's what I prefer.

 

[kenyee]

https://qz.com/cheap-affordable-vehicle-sales-grow-luxury-fall-prices-1851667915

Interesting that purchases of $100k+ vehicles dropped 46% this year...

 

[Donald Stanfield]

My comment was based upon the claim that the R1S was the "most popular" SUV. Here's the quote: "....The R1S is the most popular SUV, period, in many target markets."

There was no qualifiers about just California or large premium per se. Ironically, the Rivian R1S is neither large or premium as far as I'm concerned. It's a midsize electric SUV and there's not all that much premium about it. Certainly not premium in terms of a Land Rover, for example. Hell, even the upper tier Grand Cherokees are far more premium. The only thing premium about an R1S is the price tag. Features-wise, it's beaten by less expensive SUV.

As far as the list I posted, they are the top selling SUVs, which is exactly what my comment was about. Other than the EV vs ICE thing, the R1S does in fact compete with some of them. Maybe not a Rav4 or CR-V, but the other midsize SUVs are certainly a competitor with the R1S. If I don't buy an R1S in the next year or two, I'll almost certainly buy a new Grand Cherokee instead. Why? Because The R1S is already the only thing electric that's similar to a Grand Cherokee and that's what I prefer.

I don’t know what world you’re living in but a Grand Cherokee is no where close to a Rivian in premium finishing. They aren’t even in the same conversation, especially the Ascend package.

I think the Ascend interior is as premium feeling as the 170k dollar autobiography Range Rover I test drove a month or so ago. The R1S also has much more room available than said Range Rover. Jeep isn’t even in this conversation IMO.

 

[White Shadow]

I don’t know what world you’re living in but a Grand Cherokee is no where close to a Rivian in premium finishing. They aren’t even in the same conversation, especially the Ascend package.

I think the Ascend interior is as premium feeling as the 170k dollar autobiography Range Rover I test drove a month or so ago. The R1S also has much more room available than said Range Rover. Jeep isn’t even in this conversation IMO.

You're obviously not up to speed on Grand Cherokees. Do yourself a favor and take a close look at a new Summit Reserve Grand Cherokee. It's far more luxurious than anything that Rivian offers. It also has far more luxury features. It's not even close.

 

[mkhuffman]

You're obviously not up to speed on Grand Cherokees. Do yourself a favor and take a close look at a new Summit Reserve Grand Cherokee. It's far more luxurious than anything that Rivian offers. It also has far more luxury features. It's not even close.

@Donald Stanfield, I usually agree with you, but this case, I have to say our 2023 GC-L Summit Reserve High Altitude literally has every feature you could imagine on a vehicle.

I really appreciate the heads-up display, which is not available in the R1. I also greatly prefer the opening sunroof that can be covered when not in use. The Marantz sound system is the loudest and clearest audio I have ever heard in a vehicle. It goes so loud it is unbelievable how clear it sounds at that volume, with extremely strong bass.

It drives like a boat, but to most people, that is what comfort is. And it definitely has decent off-road capabilities. It is not at R1 level, of course, but that isn't relevant for a luxury vehicle, IMO.

There is a display on the dash in front of the passenger for my wife to play with. I have not gotten any use out of that feature, but still, pretty luxury. The rear seats are heated and cooled, and it has Amazon Fire tablets built into the headrests (and connected to the audio system) for the rear passengers.

This is not mine, but this is exactly what mine looks like inside. It is a great looking vehicle.

This is mine:

To me the R1 isn't about luxury, it is about capability. Certainly you want a $100k vehicle to be nice inside, but that is not what attracts me to the R1. It is the speed and utility. And the drivetrain technology.

Those are the things I love about the R1, and why I personally prefer it over the GC. Even if it costs $25k more. My wife is a different story, and so the GC is for her. I do really, really like it though.

 

[White Shadow]

I think the Ascend interior is as premium feeling as the 170k dollar autobiography Range Rover I test drove a month or so ago.

You're comparing a Rivian with a vehicle that has quilted Palermo leather seats with massaging function? And a stitched leather dashboard? And infrared night vision with animal and pedestrian detection? And a digital rear view mirror? And a McIntosh sound system? And Apple Car Play/Android Auto? And a full-color HUD? And a passenger side touchscreen in addition to the center and driver's side screens?




Oh, I wasn't talking about the Range Rover, I was talking about the Grand Cherokee. It has all that and more. But yeah, the Range Rover is also a luxury vehicle with tons of luxury features.

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

@Donald Stanfield, I usually agree with you, but this case, I have to say our 2023 GC-L Summit Reserve High Altitude literally has every feature you could imagine on a vehicle.

I really appreciate the heads-up display, which is not available in the R1. I also greatly prefer the opening sunroof that can be covered when not in use. The Marantz sound system is the loudest and clearest audio I have ever heard in a vehicle. It goes so loud it is unbelievable how clear it sounds at that volume, with extremely strong bass.

100% agree with the HUD. Once we got a car with a solid HUD, it really changed the way we drive. Eyes are always on the road!

 

[mkhuffman]

You're comparing a Rivian with a vehicle that has quilted Palermo leather seats with massaging function? And a stitched leather dashboard? And infrared night vision with animal and pedestrian detection? And a digital rear view mirror? And a McIntosh sound system? And Apple Car Play/Android Auto? And a full-color HUD? And a passenger side touchscreen in addition to the center and driver's side screens?




Oh, I wasn't talking about the Range Rover, I was talking about the Grand Cherokee. It has all that and more. But yeah, the Range Rover is also a luxury vehicle with tons of luxury features.

My wife loves the massaging seats. I like them also, but she loves them. I should use the infrared night vision more often, but I forget about it. Sometimes it will pop up automatically when it sees something.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

You're obviously not up to speed on Grand Cherokees. Do yourself a favor and take a close look at a new Summit Reserve Grand Cherokee. It's far more luxurious than anything that Rivian offers. It also has far more luxury features. It's not even close.

You're comparing a Rivian with a vehicle that has quilted Palermo leather seats with massaging function? And a stitched leather dashboard? And infrared night vision with animal and pedestrian detection? And a digital rear view mirror? And a McIntosh sound system? And Apple Car Play/Android Auto? And a full-color HUD? And a passenger side touchscreen in addition to the center and driver's side screens?




Oh, I wasn't talking about the Range Rover, I was talking about the Grand Cherokee. It has all that and more. But yeah, the Range Rover is also a luxury vehicle with tons of luxury features.

I don't care for the styling and HUDs don't work for me because I wear polarized sunglasses. No matter what car I'm in, the HUD is barely visible with the sunglasses on. Some of those other features would be nice, though, but features aren't really what I'm talking about when I say luxury.

To me luxury means style, and I don't care for the Jeep's styling. It's nice, but there isn't a design language that speaks to me there. I don't care for the color of the wood or the diamond stitching on the side bolsters. It doesn't work, as it looks like they were going with a traditionalist design style but didn't quite get it right.

That interior would bug the heck out of me. Putting all the luxury touches on something doesn't guarantee it is luxury, as part of what you're paying for is a cohesive design language. Rivian has knocked it out with their Ascend interiors, especially the non-black ones. The colors are complimentary, and the styling is a coherent modern aesthetic.

With all that said, design and styling aren't as big of a deal for everyone, and I could see the appeal. The Rivian is superior for my dollar as they got the language right.

 

[White Shadow]

I don't care for the styling and HUDs don't work for me because I wear polarized sunglasses. No matter what car I'm in, the HUD is barely visible with the sunglasses on. Some of those other features would be nice, though, but features aren't really what I'm talking about when I say luxury.

To me luxury means style, and I don't care for the Jeep's styling. It's nice, but there isn't a design language that speaks to me there. I don't care for the color of the wood or the diamond stitching on the side bolsters. It doesn't work, as it looks like they were going with a traditionalist design style but didn't quite get it right.

That interior would bug the heck out of me. Putting all the luxury touches on something doesn't guarantee it is luxury, as part of what you're paying for is a cohesive design language. Rivian has knocked it out with their Ascend interiors, especially the non-black ones. The colors are complimentary, and the styling is a coherent modern aesthetic.

With all that said, design and styling aren't as big of a deal for everyone, and I could see the appeal. The Rivian is superior for my dollar as they got the language right.

That's all good and fine, but luxury features were the topic, not subjective feelings on styling. My point was that the Grand Cherokee is targeting Range Rover from a luxury standpoint and they pretty much nailed it. Rivian, on the other hand, has a premium price tag without the luxury features people have come to expect. And that's fine because it's an electric vehicle and luxury isn't really what a Rivian is about. It's an "adventure" vehicle.

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