CleanTechnica - Toyota Is Digging Its Own Grave

[Zoidz]

Toyota Is Digging Its Own Grave

"I can’t say how well Toyota will be able to change course in years to come when the company realizes that it’s really time to switch to electric vehicles (BEVs). What I can say is that I’m a bit shocked the company is still dragging its feet to such an absurd degree. Also, for what it seems it’s trying to do in California, it’s a company I could never support again.
...
The problem is that, for whatever reason, Toyota wants a transition to BEVs to go as slowly as possible. Perhaps it’s because Toyota led on old-school hybrids and it’s trying to retain its leadership role by clinging to the idea that people aren’t ready for BEVs. Whatever the reason, it’s disgraceful, and Toyota is losing business every day that it delays.

...
Toyota would do well to focus its efforts on developing competitive, affordable electric cars while it still has a tiny door open into this market. Wasting its time fighting progressive regulations and pretending the future isn’t just around the corner anyway is beyond dumb, it’s an existential threat to the company. Wake up, Toyota — you’re sitting in the garage with the car running, and it’s not electric!"

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[COdogman]

I have to agree with those criticisms. I was a huge Toyota fan, but after seeing how they have gone out of their way to sabotage any effort towards EV adoption, I don’t see myself giving them a dime of my money in the future. Everyone had high hopes for their hybrid trucks, but so far the reviews aren’t showing much improvement in mpg… It’s one thing to sit on the sidelines and keep making reliable old vehicles, but they are doing their best to tank all EV interest.

 

[CosmicRivian]

As a former Toyota loyalist and devotee, I agree 100% with COdogman on this. If the much promised, but never delivered, Tacoma EV had come out a couple of years ago, I would be driving it today. I’m glad it didn’t go that way, because I love my R1T more than any car or truck I’ve ever owned, but I was ready to go all in years ago on the teased Toyota EVs that never came to be.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

To the surprise to no one here EVs are the future. What people with no EV experience don’t get is EVs aren’t going to win because of climate they are going to win because they are better vehicles.

Faster and more consistent, infinitely configurable drive modes and less maintenance. EVs are superior in every way besides range and speed of fueling. Even that is changing and in a daily use scenario is not much of a problem for the average person.

Toyota is clinging to a past that is no longer there. EVs aren’t a fringe product, they are mainstream and many households are EV only at this point. Once I got my R1T I knew that EVs were the vehicles I was going to buy going forward and I am replacing my truck with an SUV right now. I didn’t even look at anything ICE except the Range Rover and that was only to get a feel for the size for when their EV comes out.

I’m generally an early adopter of things but there are too many companies and too many choices of EVs today to put that genie back in the bottle. Low gas prices isn’t going to do it, because cheaper cost of operation is only one benefit to an EV. You aren’t going to get the instant torque or one pedal drive on an ICE and those features are deal breakers for me now.

Knowing when I need to merge or cross a road that my car is going to be able to do it in the exact manner I want it to and not have to worry about turbo lag or downshifting or listening to an engine at high RPMs to give me the power I need.

This happens with every technological leap forward. The big players of the old way almost always fight to keep their marketshare and if the technology replacing them is superior they almost always lose. At this point Toyota losing is an inevitability

 

[NY_Rob]

Well, that's all going to change when Toyota releases their Solid State battery any day now... just you wait and see!

 

[Reed]

I don't understand what Toyota thinks it's doing. Maybe they are following General Electric and Boeing down the quarterly profits rabbit hole.

Perhaps it makes sense to not open the vault until superior batteries make the switch to BEV's a slam dunk. But, to not even put out a half decent electric SUV? That's just plain stupid.

As a 2002 Tacoma owner who loves his sturdy little pickup, I have held out hope that Toyota would come out with an electric Hilux that could replace my Taco. It looks like BYD's pickup is set to eat Toyota's lunch in places where the Hilux has been dominant. So far, I'm not seeing any response from Toyota. Just the typical 'you wait and see' thing that has been dragging on for years.

Right now, I am focused on getting a new house in a different community. There is one option that is completely free of fossil gas and has a heat pump installed. Everything I'm looking at has a double wide garage. The only thing I'm not seeing are solar panels and a backup battery.

Once I get settled in the new house, I'm going to turn my attention to an electric vehicle. It looks like I will have a garage that can accommodate any size of vehicle. I'll be ready to go completely electric.

And, I don't expect Toyota to be any part of my all-electric journey.

 

[9527]

I have to agree with those criticisms. I was a huge Toyota fan, but after seeing how they have gone out of their way to sabotage any effort towards EV adoption, I don’t see myself giving them a dime of my money in the future. Everyone had high hopes for their hybrid trucks, but so far the reviews aren’t showing much improvement in mpg… It’s one thing to sit on the sidelines and keep making reliable old vehicles, but they are doing their best to tank all EV interest.

Same.
I most likely won’t go back to Toyota because welp, I won’t go back to non EV. BZ4X? That’s a joke.

We owned a few Toyotas because of their reliability. It was unbeatable 20 years ago.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

They want it to go as slowly as possible because their vast footprint and equity is in ICE—easy profits. They also don’t feel BEVs are worthy as long as you can’t recharge as quickly as you can refuel a ICE car. And as a brand that’s been very successful with the mass market consumer, they have a point there. We know that is a big sticking point against adoption. What Toyota ignores is people do and can adapt if they have to. Lucky for them, cooling momentum and political winds might have just bought them enough time to get their fabled solid state batteries ready.

Plus, charging infrastructure isn’t where it needs to be. Take note of how many Toyotas are around you. Not everyone can charge at home. Take the best charging network today… As good as Superchargers are, imagine what it’d be like if you had to share them with hordes of Toyotas.

Out of their current lineup, only the Landcruiser appeals to me. But not what it’d cost to run at inflated CA fuel prices. If it was a REHEV…

 

[moosetags]

My #3 son just bought a 2023 Subaru Solterra for my Granddaughter as her first car. The Solterra is a BEV and is the first Subaru to be built on the e-Subaru Global Platform which was jointly developed with Toyota. There are several places on this vehicle that bear the Toyota trademark. My son got a heck of a deal on this '23 Solterra. It was a Subaru dealer loaner vehicle that had 4,600 miles on it. It stickered for $43,000 and he bought it for $24,500 with full factory warranty.

Brian

 

[Biturbowned]

As a former Toyota loyalist and devotee, I agree 100% with COdogman on this. If the much promised, but never delivered, Tacoma EV had come out a couple of years ago, I would be driving it today. I’m glad it didn’t go that way, because I love my R1T more than any car or truck I’ve ever owned, but I was ready to go all in years ago on the teased Toyota EVs that never came to be.

Yeah this is me too, I was interested in an e-Taco, but the R1T is such an amazing vehicle, I have no regrets.

 

[iansriv]

I am a big fan of Toyota. Their upper management is brilliant and their corporate culture is one of the best. I was offered a role at Toyota a few years ago and one of my concerns was that it is managed by committee. It is a very much group effort. That is the opposite of what I see with Rivian. I really want Toyota to do well but agree with prior posts that they need to drastically change in order to do well in the future. Why not do a JV like VW or create a separate division like Scout?

 

[Zoidz]

I don't understand what Toyota thinks it's doing. Maybe they are following General Electric and Boeing down the quarterly profits rabbit hole.

Reminds me of Intel - failing to recognize/acknowledge/adapt to an industry wide paradigm shift. Look at where Intel is today.....

 

[White Shadow]

Toyota is doing what they've always done. Think about it....Toyota isn't an innovator in any way. The reason their vehicles have a reputation for reliability is because they don't embrace technology. They'd rather sit on the sideliness and wait for it to be perfected. A quick example---Toyota sells an SUV right now with an ancient 5-speed transmission, while everyone else has moved onto 8-, 9-, and 10-speed transmissions long ago. So it doesn't surprise me that Toyota isn't big on fully electric vehicles. They seem to be content with their popular hybrid models and seemingly do well in that arena.

That said, I also think the philosophy at Toyota is more of a 'wait and see' approach to see how the market goes with BEVs. They aren't exactly popular here in the North American market. And for that reason, it seems like most mainstream auto manufacturers have been walking back their plans for electrification. Personally, I think the next administration will hurt EV growth, not help, so I see a long road ahead for BEVs for sure.

 

[White Shadow]

Interesting thoughts, but here's some counterpoints:

To the surprise to no one here EVs are the future. What people with no EV experience don’t get is EVs aren’t going to win because of climate they are going to win because they are better vehicles.

Faster and more consistent, infinitely configurable drive modes and less maintenance. EVs are superior in every way besides range and speed of fueling. Even that is changing and in a daily use scenario is not much of a problem for the average person.

Faster? Sure, on average but not always. I'd agrue that this doesn't matter to most people. My car is very fast and I never really use it's full capability on the road because it's just not necessary. So a fast vehicle might be great for bragging rights, but most people don't care as long as their vehicle has what they consider acceptable acceleration..

More consistent? In what way?

Infinitely configurable? No car is infinitely configurable, but I don't see any advantage for EV over ICE in that regard.

Less maintenance? Sure, probably. But keep in mind that even ICE cars are very low maintenance these days. It's not the 1970s when they needed a tune-up every 30,000 miles. Today's ICE engines don't even require tune-ups anymore....that's a thing of the past. Just oil & filter changes for the first 100,000 miles at most and you should be good to go. Neither of the cars I daily drive had need anything other than oil & filter changes since I've owned them. And most people aren't keeping cars long term anyway, so if the maintenance is a quick and easy (and inexpensive) oil chage twice a year, I don't think maintenance is going to be a factor in their purchasing decisions. And let's not forget that EVs are heavy and tend to eat tires, so if the argument is cost based, I'm not so sure EVs have an advantage there either when it comes to maintenance costs.

Range & refueling? Yes, I agree that's an advantage for ICE. A big issue that goes along with that is anxiety. I know quite a few people who absolutely refuse to jump into the EV arena specifically because of that anxiety. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely a real thing that people think about when making a purchasing decision. Personally, I'm not convinced that an EV is better in every other way when I compare my own vehicles to comparable EV vehicles. I've compared my Jeep to the R1S on more than one occasion and I can still say that the ride on my air-suspension equipped Jeep is much better than the ride on an R1S, including the updated facelifted version. Ride quality is important to me and it's really not even comparable. I had hoped that the new R1S would have made big leaps forward in ride quality, but to be honest it didn't feel all that much different to me. Maybe that's because I don't own one and haven't lived with it, but even a short drive is enough to know that the ride and refinement I had hoped for and that I'm used to just isn't there.

I do think EVs will continue to improve and I realize that start-up EV companies will need time to figure it all out before they get to the level of legacy auto manufacturers. But right now, they just aren't there. I've had some time in Teslas (only Model 3 and Model Y) and to me they feel like cheap economy cars in the way that they ride. I hear that the new Model 3 is supposedly much, much improved in ride quality, but I haven't driven one. And I probably wont' either because I refuse to buy a Tesla under any circumstances, so unless someone I know gets a new Model 3, I won't be in one to compare.

Toyota is clinging to a past that is no longer there. EVs aren’t a fringe product, they are mainstream and many households are EV only at this point. Once I got my R1T I knew that EVs were the vehicles I was going to buy going forward and I am replacing my truck with an SUV right now. I didn’t even look at anything ICE except the Range Rover and that was only to get a feel for the size for when their EV comes out.

But the past is still there....it's actually the present. ICE is still selling for more than BEV. Yes, many households have gone full EV, but that's a VERY small percentage of households across the North American market. I'd guess that probably 99% of households that have cars haven't gone full EV. The few that do have EVs also tend to still have at least one ICE vehicle. So don't be so quick to judge Toyota. They are still manufacturing what people want. I read comments where people say that they'll never go back to ICE after owning an EV. That's great, but in the real world I see it happen quite a bit. One of my best friends said the same thing when he purchased his Model 3 Performance. Two years later and he traded it in on a BMW M3. Why? He claims that he got bored with the Tesla. The initial instant torque satisfied him for a while, but not enough to make him want to keep the car over something like the true enthusiast vehicle that he drives now.

I’m generally an early adopter of things but there are too many companies and too many choices of EVs today to put that genie back in the bottle. Low gas prices isn’t going to do it, because cheaper cost of operation is only one benefit to an EV. You aren’t going to get the instant torque or one pedal drive on an ICE and those features are deal breakers for me now.

Cost of operation isn't of much concern if you're spending more for an EV. The average cost of a new EV today is about $8,000 more than the average cost of a new ICE vehicle. I think EVs need to come down in cost a bit before anyone will seriously consider the lower cost of operation as a reason to go eletric. Of course a lot of people like to use gas savings as a reason to buy an EV, but that always makes me laugh when I see them buying something like a $90K+ Rivian and then saying how great it will feel to not have to shell out money at the gas station every week. I can only shake my head in amusement when I read stuff like that.

Knowing when I need to merge or cross a road that my car is going to be able to do it in the exact manner I want it to and not have to worry about turbo lag or downshifting or listening to an engine at high RPMs to give me the power I need.

That's great, but I never once had any issue with that in my ICE vehicles, current or past. And for what it's worth, I love listening to the sounds of an engine climbing up the rev range and the slight whistle of a turbocharger, and the sound of a well tuned exhaust system. It's part of the joy of driving for me. I prefer it greatly over a sterile driving experience. When it comes to EVs the only thing I get that I find enjoyable is the sound of the electric motors whirring. Who knows, maybe I'm weird like that, but I enjoy the mechanical aspect of motor vehicles.

This happens with every technological leap forward. The big players of the old way almost always fight to keep their marketshare and if the technology replacing them is superior they almost always lose. At this point Toyota losing is an inevitability

Completely disagree. Toyota is a huge company. They aren't going anywhere. You and I will be long gone before Toyota. If the market shifts and they aren't ready, they'll just be late to the party, but they'll get there and they'll do just fine.

 

[M3_R2]

Owned a few Toyota's before my first EV in 2018 and was at the Toyota dealership with my new Tesla and the sales guy even back then was lamenting about how they weren't doing anything to be in this space and he saw my M3 as being the future.

Then watching them over the next 6 years continue to milk their cash flow for all it's worth while spewing nonsense in a veiled attempt to keep customers...never again Toyota. You've lost this customer for life. Though I honestly can't see them succeeding, Honda has had success with their Prologue so I guess it's always possible.

Toyota spent a LOT of money in the USA actively lobbying against EV's. Then they put that into battery tech and are now positioning themselves as being committed to electrification. How 2-faced is that?

This is more than simply Toyota's culture that doesn't move quickly on these fronts but takes a more wait and see approach. They very actively sought to disrupt the advances of electrification.

Never forget that.

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