Article: Charging The Electric Rivian R1S Was More Expensive Than Filling Up Some Notorious Gas Guzzlers

[Donald Stanfield]

It’s a valid complaint for the general public and not a bunch of nerds like a lot of us here. People don’t want to have to drive 10-15mph slower and carefully plan a trip somewhere. They want the convenience of driving 80-85mph on the highway and pulling over when the gas light comes on because they need to top off the tank/battery. We all know the exact reasons for why the EV never hits the rated range in these “tests” and that you should probably sit fora few minutes and plan your route and charge stops but that’s not something most care to know or do.

It's not a valid complaint when you look at it as a whole instead of taking a small sample of data and trying to conclude it. One of the things that opened my mind to EVs was a gentleman on Quora who was an EV aficionado and dealt with these sort of objections head on. While it is true that EVs are slower on a road trip that isn't an accurate picture for most owners. What this guy did is figure on all the time saved per year not having to visit a gas station once a week.

If you factor around 10 min per stop once a week in gas station fill ups, you are ahead on time even with a couple extra hours of added charging stops on a couple road trips per year. So sure the charging on a longer trip adds time, the truth is you save time on a yearly basis thanks to avoiding fueling stops.

Same thing with costs for charging. This one is doubly dishonest for the ICE head journalists. They will take an EV truck or 3 row SUV compare the fueling costs of a smaller ICE vehicle, and declare EVs more expensive. Either that or they drive the EV at 80MPH then use ICE MPG EPA ratings as a comparison when the ICE at 80MPH would get much less than their MPG rating as well. As most people here have said, their ICE trucks have a comparable fuel cost on road trips to the Rivian.

Again, overall fueling costs for most people are substantially less than a comparable ICE vehicle. Sure I might be paying 45 cents per kWh on a road trip, but here at home, it is 10 cents per kWh which is much cheaper than gasoline at 3 dollars a gallon. I save money daily driving my EV, and the fuel cost is similar to driving an ultra-fuel-efficient vehicle like a Prius. Looking at a small part of the experience of owning an EV then concluding that EVs are worse is lazy journalism.

We all know that people engage more with content that worries or angers them, and in the search for clicks, this shoddy work is substituted for well-researched articles. The general population, who relies on this information, is misled.

Sponsored

 

[SANZC02]

I came to a similar conclusion at about $.32/kwh being the breakeven between ICE and EV cost. based on $3.00/g gasoline. Considering the costs of electricity, it's really not that much to ask to have charging available at less than $.30/kwh.

Probably depends on where you live, in SoCal my house cheapest rate in summer is 27 cents and peak rates are 58 cents. We are in winter rates now where cheapest off-peak is 26 cents and peak is 51 cents. Makes it very easy to get a short ROI on a solar install here.

People need to realize the cost of electricity is only part of the expenses for a DCFC site, there are land lease cost, insurance cost, maintenance costs, as well as trying to get enough profit to get an ROI on the equipment. There also could be additional cost for high demand charges depending on the utility company. I’m sure some of the high cost in areas with low rates is to fair share expenses across areas with higher rates.

 

[bigsky]

https://www.theautopian.com/chargin...ve-than-filling-up-any-of-these-gas-guzzlers/


LA to Vegas at 80 mph and complains battery don’t last for 400 miles. Don’t plan the trip and complains about charging prices sounds like a user error not a vehicle problem..

Thoughts

There is a fast charger at a certain location, just a typical example. It charges $0.64/kWh and it is about the only game in town for CCS EVs. I submit to you that you may plan your trip to death, until you turn blue in the face, and guess what? You still will pay $0.64/kWh.
kWh per kWh, that translates to an ICE driver paying $21.569 for a gallon of gasoline (energy equivalent).

Spot-on article. Well written with facts.
As I have said many times, the cost of electricity at fast chargers is in my view one of the biggest scams perpetrated on mankind, full stop.

Some make the argument that because EVs are more efficient, the price of fast charging may be equivalent to the price of gasoline on a per-mile basis. Well, a Prius ICE. Indeed, a motorcycle pays no more for a gallon of gasoline than the biggest most inefficient big ICE SUV pays. A-okay to penalize the great efficiency of EVs by charging much, much more for the same energy, the argument goes. Total poppycock. Or that EVs are far cheaper to maintain; therefore, a-okay to pay a lot more for energy to drive them. Another N/A, poppycock #2.

Fortunately, the vast majority of my charging takes place at home, where if fully charging my R1S, it would cost less than the same amount of energy would cost in terms of gasoline (R1S has an energy "tank" equivalent to a 4-gal. gasoline tank. Do the math.)

If one cannot charge at home or at work (free?) for that matter and must rely on fast charging alone, it is a very valid argument to make: driving an EV may cost more than driving an ICE.

 

[DCFC]

There is a fast charger at a certain location, just a typical example. It charges $0.64/kWh and it is about the only game in town for CCS EVs. I submit to you that you may plan your trip to death, until you turn blue in the face, and guess what? You still will pay $0.64/kWh.
kWh per kWh, that translates to an ICE driver paying $21.569 for a gallon of gasoline (energy equivalent).

Spot-on article. Well written with facts.
As I have said many times, the cost of electricity at fast chargers is in my view one of the biggest scams perpetrated on mankind, full stop.

Some make the argument that because EVs are more efficient, the price of fast charging may be equivalent to the price of gasoline on a per-mile basis. Well, a Prius ICE. Indeed, a motorcycle pays no more for a gallon of gasoline than the biggest most inefficient big ICE SUV pays. A-okay to penalize the great efficiency of EVs by charging much, much more for the same energy, the argument goes. Total poppycock. Or that EVs are far cheaper to maintain; therefore, a-okay to pay a lot more for energy to drive them. Another N/A, poppycock #2.

Fortunately, the vast majority of my charging takes place at home, where if fully charging my R1S, it would cost less than the same amount of energy would cost in terms of gasoline (R1S has an energy "tank" equivalent to a 4-gal. gasoline tank. Do the math.)

If one cannot charge at home or at work (free?) for that matter and must rely on fast charging alone, it is a very valid argument to make: driving an EV may cost more than driving an ICE.

Exactly. Even charging at home in SoCal, where my super off-peak is $0.35/kWh, local gas cost of about $4.70 for 87oct, my Polestar2 gets an equivalent of 44mpg with my lifetime efficiency of 3.3 miles per kWh. A Camry hybrid would be cheaper to drive on a pure fuel costs basis, ignoring oil changes. But oil change only adds about one cent per mile. But driving a Camry hybrid would suck.

 

[mikehmb]

Exactly. Even charging at home in SoCal, where my super off-peak is $0.35/kWh, local gas cost of about $4.70 for 87oct, my Polestar2 gets an equivalent of 44mpg with my lifetime efficiency of 3.3 miles per kWh. A Camry hybrid would be cheaper to drive on a pure fuel costs basis, ignoring oil changes. But oil change only adds about one cent per mile. But driving a Camry hybrid would suck.

I pay $0.27/kWh off-peak, and see around 2.4m/kWh on average. Gives me a little over $0.11/mile.

My Tundra got 16mpg lifetime, and where I live, gas is around $5/gal right now (and I wanted to drive it into the ocean when gas went over $7). So $0.31/mile in that truck.

Apples to apples, I'm definitely saving money when I charge at home. On a road trip, it's basically a wash.

 

[NC-Rivian]

He's not wrong. I just did a 2400 mile trip from San Antonio to Greenville,SC and public fast charging (mostly on Tesla and RAN) cost more than it would have to drive our Honda Odyssey that gets about 25 mpg. I made a spreadsheet to track costs and charging speed and it was a little shocking how expensive it is.

For reference, I paid an average of $.42/kwh. Electricity on average is $.12/kwh across the US, so charging providers are charging roughly 350% to charge your EV. Gas is usually sold at cost or sometimes even below cost. My takeaway is that scarcity is driving costs, and until there is more charging available the public charging providers will continue to scalp the early adopters.

I do the Asheville NC to San Antonio drive (I85-I65-I10 and back) at least a couple of times every year and with some judicious planning, it can be done at about 55-60% the ICE cost. Tip 1: always overnight at a hotel with free charging. Tip 2: some Tesla SC's are cheaper than others (e.g. Newnan GA and Commerce GA is 0.36 base rate and even less if you buy the $12.99/mo Tesla membership). Tip 3: there are a couple of Rivian RAN's along the way with cheaper rates. Also, don't pass up the Buc-ee's stop in Luling TX. Point is this: some judicious planning can dramatically lower your on-the-road charging costs.

 

[bigsky]

Exactly. Even charging at home in SoCal, where my super off-peak is $0.35/kWh, local gas cost of about $4.70 for 87oct, my Polestar2 gets an equivalent of 44mpg with my lifetime efficiency of 3.3 miles per kWh. A Camry hybrid would be cheaper to drive on a pure fuel costs basis, ignoring oil changes. But oil change only adds about one cent per mile. But driving a Camry hybrid would suck.

44 MPG seems low, but your overall efficiency is maybe a tad less than what I get with my Teslas. That's great. $0.35/kwh? Man! I pay less than $0.07/kWh where I live; no TOU rates, none needed.

Yes. At the end of the day, the TCO is far lower for an EV than for an ICE. That's the bottom line. As for me, there is no way in that proverbial place that I ever shall own another ICE car. But the fact of the matter is that ICE has a leg up on EVs both in terms of time spent charging/refueling and cost thereof. When travelling. And that's about it, probably.

 

[bigsky]

I pay $0.27/kWh off-peak, and see around 2.4m/kWh on average. Gives me a little over $0.11/mile.

My Tundra got 16mpg lifetime, and where I live, gas is around $5/gal right now (and I wanted to drive it into the ocean when gas went over $7). So $0.31/mile in that truck.

Apples to apples, I'm definitely saving money when I charge at home. On a road trip, it's basically a wash.

Hardly a wash. Where this charger is located (@ $0.64/kWh), the price of gasoline is $2.889. A Toyota SUV @ 19 MPG and a 20-gal. tank will cost $57.78 to fill up, good for 380 miles. Good for 308 miles, my R1S would cost $86.40 to fully charge. I will go out on a limb here and surmise that $86.40 is a heckuva lot more than $57.78. A lot more. No wash here.

 

[DCFC]

44 MPG seems low, but your overall efficiency is maybe a tad less than what I get with my Teslas. That's great. $0.35/kwh? Man! I pay less than $0.07/kWh where I live; no TOU rates, none needed.

Yes. At the end of the day, the TCO is far lower for an EV than for an ICE. That's the bottom line. As for me, there is no way in that proverbial place that I ever shall own another ICE car. But the fact of the matter is that ICE has a leg up on EVs both in terms of time spent charging/refueling and cost thereof. When travelling. And that's about it, probably.

If I were only paying $0.07/kWh, I'd have to find a gas car that got 220mpg to be fuel cost equivalent!

 

[mkg3]

https://www.theautopian.com/chargin...ve-than-filling-up-any-of-these-gas-guzzlers/


LA to Vegas at 80 mph and complains battery don’t last for 400 miles. Don’t plan the trip and complains about charging prices sounds like a user error not a vehicle problem..

Thoughts

Both ICE and EV mpg/eMPG are done in a controlled consistent environment. The driver of the article drove at 80mph LA to Vegas, which is an average speed vast majority of the drivers drive at (I have done this drive multiple times). Many go faster than 80 mph.

The point worth mentioning is that driving EVs at 80mph impacts more than driving ICE vehicles at 80 mph when compared to the EPA ratings.

Just as gas prices are all over the place along the interstate, so are the DCFC. My last drive between SoCal to the Bay Area with my R1S, driving mostly at 80mph, again average speed on Interstate 5, my DCFC charging was more than what would cost to drive my ICE Outback at the same pace, and get there faster (no gas stop for roughly 400 miles, whereas a long stop to charge for R1S). Outback is much smaller and lighter vehicle.

I would say that this is a silly argument to make as written in the story. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Need to compare largest engine optioned 7 seat SUV (e.g., Durango, Wagoneer, Range Rover) driving at the same speed and condition to make the comparison.

 

[bigsky]

I do the Asheville NC to San Antonio drive (I85-I65-I10 and back) at least a couple of times every year and with some judicious planning, it can be done at about 55-60% the ICE cost. Tip 1: always overnight at a hotel with free charging. Tip 2: some Tesla SC's are cheaper than others (e.g. Newnan GA and Commerce GA is 0.36 base rate and even less if you buy the $12.99/mo Tesla membership). Tip 3: there are a couple of Rivian RAN's along the way with cheaper rates. Also, don't pass up the Buc-ee's stop in Luling TX. Point is this: some judicious planning can dramatically lower your on-the-road charging costs.

In other words, you are at least partly relying on public welfare (free charging) to justify that tripping on an EV is cheaper than ICE. That's one big issue I see on here, EVs are associated with perks like free electricity, great efficiency, membership fees, etc. to justify away the outlandish (to put mildly) costs of fast charging.

Energy costs need to be looked up and evaluated on their own merit. Heck, I can drive my Tesla Model S from CA to ME and will cost me nada, zilch, $0 to charge at Tesla SCs, but that does not take away the fact that the cost of energy is far, far more expensive for an EV than it is for an ICE. This is settled scam law.

By the way, an ICE driver would have to pay $12.139 a gallon to match the "low" $0.36/kWh price of electricity.

 

[mikehmb]

Hardly a wash. Where this charger is located (@ $0.64/kWh), the price of gasoline is $2.889. A Toyota SUV @ 19 MPG and a 20-gal. tank will cost $57.78 to fill up, good for 380 miles. Good for 308 miles, my R1S would cost $86.40 to fully charge. I will go out on a limb here and surmise that $86.40 is a heckuva lot more than $57.78. A lot more. No wash here.

That's what I qualified it with "where I live". YMMV - literally.

My R1T gets 2.4mi/kWh, where my Tundra got 17mpg. The math I wrote above very much holds when you see $0.65/kWh and $5/gal across this state. Then it's a wash.

 

[NC-Rivian]

In other words, you are at least partly relying on public welfare (free charging) to justify that tripping on an EV is cheaper than ICE. That's one big issue I see on here, EVs are associated with perks like free electricity, great efficiency, membership fees, etc. to justify away the outlandish (to put mildly) costs of fast charging.

Energy costs need to be looked up and evaluated on their own merit. Heck, I can drive my Tesla Model S from CA to ME and will cost me nada, zilch, $0 to charge at Tesla SCs, but that does not take away the fact that the cost of energy is far, far more expensive for an EV than it is for an ICE. This is settled scam law.

By the way, an ICE driver would have to pay $12.139 a gallon to match the "low" $0.36/kWh price of electricity.

The charges at hotels aren't free because I'm renting the room with the understanding that I can plug in. And ... Ummm ... it isn't a scam to take advantage of a public offering.

 

[bigsky]

Both ICE and EV mpg/eMPG are done in a controlled consistent environment. The driver of the article drove at 80mph LA to Vegas, which is an average speed vast majority of the drivers drive at (I have done this drive multiple times). Many go faster than 80 mph.

The point worth mentioning is that driving EVs at 80mph impacts more than driving ICE vehicles at 80 mph when compared to the EPA ratings.

Just as gas prices are all over the place along the interstate, so are the DCFC. My last drive between SoCal to the Bay Area with my R1S, driving mostly at 80mph, again average speed on Interstate 5, my DCFC charging was more than what would cost to drive my ICE Outback at the same pace, and get there faster (no gas stop for roughly 400 miles, whereas a long stop to charge for R1S). Outback is much smaller and lighter vehicle.

I would say that this is a silly argument to make as written in the story. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Need to compare largest engine optioned 7 seat SUV (e.g., Durango, Wagoneer, Range Rover) driving at the same speed and condition to make the comparison.

Or one can drive an ICE motorcycle and pay a lot less for energy. The point should not be how efficient or how inefficient a vehicle is. Rather, figure out the cost of energy put into an EV at fast chargers vs. the cost of energy put into an ICE car at gas stations. It is not even close. ICE comes out on top.

 

[bigsky]

The charges at hotels aren't free because I'm renting the room with the understanding that I can plug in. And ... Ummm ... it isn't a scam to take advantage of a public offering.

Indeed. Could not agree more with you. Unrelated to the issue at hand, though, the free dime, that is.

Sponsored