Article: Charging The Electric Rivian R1S Was More Expensive Than Filling Up Some Notorious Gas Guzzlers

[SANZC02]

Just curious with so many people thinking the current DCFC networks are overcharging everyone why don’t you guys put together a business plan and start a new network undercutting the current prices.

All you need is a bunch of prime locations, decent hardware, and a good maintenance crew for high reliability.

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[bigsky]

I'm not sure "scam" is the right word to describe the cost at many DCFC's since the charging networks are not perpatrating a fraud, but rather simply (pun intended) overcharging you. I submit that what they are doing is perhaps better described as greedy, rapacious, avaricous, predatory, voracious, marauding, extortionate . . .

Sarcasm at its best. Thank you. I hope.
Whatever we want to call it, we EV owners, especially those who rely on fast chargers only are getting hyper fleeced!

 

[s4wrxttcs]

What I'm troubled by is he didn't average the price on either the Gas or Electric

All you have to do is calculate the cost to charge/fill-up at home to 100% and the cost to charge/fill-up on the road.

Strategically they're also different. In Cali if you're driving an ICE you want to get over the border to get cheaper gas, but you try charge the least possible amount in an EV because its too expensive to charge on the road. We all know the R1T/R1S is basically the equivalent of a 18-22mpg SUV. What do you expect with a 7000+ vehicle.

I'm not too worried about trip costs. The money I save on gas going from WA to OR is significantly more than the rare time I might need to stop to charge. I usually get away with home charging on either end.

I used to be able to get away with free destination charging, but sadly a lot of places have gone away from free charging. :-(

What we really need is for grocery stores to get on board with charging credits. I get gas credits, but no charging credits. What's up with that?

 

[Count Orlok]

LOL The Count didn't buy a Rivian to save money.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

EVs generally don't save money for average driver driving 10k miles per year. Its not a surprise to me, but it is for some. Some states, including WA charge EV fees of about $250. So there is that, in addition to the higher purchase price.

Can you show your math?

Here are some averages for WA state

Average gas price is roughly $4/gallon
Average MPG of a mid-size SUV is 22mpg
The Model Y is a good average EV which has an efficiency of around 3.5mi/kWh
Average Electricity rate is 13 cents/kWh

10K miles per year is roughly 800 miles per month

That's $160 in gas per month or $1920 per year
That's $30 in electricity or $360

Looks like a sizable savings to me.

Even if you traded up to a Rivian you'd still save money.

Of course as soon as you charge away from home the math completely flips in favor of the ICE especially when driving an inefficient EV.

 

[Ngkgb]

Charging on the road is about convenience, not price, at least for me. I’ve never once stopped to think how much I’m paying compared to an ICE vehicle. In the grand scheme, it matters not.

Also, imho, there are very few cases where someone should buy an EV if they are planning to only fast charge. I’ve been called “elitist” for this opinion in the last but I stand by it. I also think “free” fast charging made life difficult for a lot of people.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

I'll tell you what. Regardless of where you may live, take the absolute highest price of gasoline in America, likely on the AK Dalton highway @$7.50 per gallon. Energy equivalent, that translates to a cost of $0.22/kWh.

Please, please, I beg you to find a place in America, any place at all along interstates where the cost of fast charging is $0.22/kWh or even less. Report back. Hint: good luck.

As I understand it you're getting that number from the EPA's spec of 33.7 kWh of electricity in a gallon of gas.

But, can you get 33.7kWh of energy into your EV from that 1 gallon of gas?

What kind of generator do you need to do that?

The highest real world estimate I can find is 75 miles per gallon of gas with the I3 with the range extender. But, in real world cases it seems to be half that.

So its only really 37.5 miles

Which reduces the energy equivalent of a gallon from 119 miles to 38 or so.

So that's actually $0.66/kWh instead of $0.22/kWh

Unless I screwed up somewhere. It's a Friday so I probably did.

 

[Thedude]

As I understand it you're getting that number from the EPA's spec of 33.7 kWh of electricity in a gallon of gas.

But, can you get 33.7kWh of energy into your EV from that 1 gallon of gas?

What kind of generator do you need to do that?

The highest real world estimate I can find is 75 miles per gallon of gas with the I3 with the range extender. But, in real world cases it seems to be half that.

So its only really 37.5 miles

Which reduces the energy equivalent of a gallon from 119 miles to 38 or so.

So that's actually $0.66/kWh instead of $0.22/kWh

Unless I screwed up somewhere. It's a Friday so I probably did.

Most vehicle gasoline combustion engines sit around 35% efficiency so a realistic number is 11.8kwh per gallon. The EPA conversion is mathematically correct but misleading at best.

 

[CrazyOne]

Can you show your math?

Here are some averages for WA state

Average gas price is roughly $4/gallon
Average MPG of a mid-size SUV is 22mpg
The Model Y is a good average EV which has an efficiency of around 3.5mi/kWh
Average Electricity rate is 13 cents/kWh

10K miles per year is roughly 800 miles per month

That's $160 in gas per month or $1920 per year
That's $30 in electricity or $360

Looks like a sizable savings to me.

Even if you traded up to a Rivian you'd still save money.

Of course as soon as you charge away from home the math completely flips in favor of the ICE especially when driving an inefficient EV.

Now compare MY to a RAV4 Hybrid. Comparable cars and Rav4 probably has more expensive interiors with real controls and less cost cutting all around.

Rav4
39 mpg combined.
Gallons to drive 10000: 256.4
Cost at $4 per gallon: 1025.6
Base price with 10% sales tax: 35090

I will go with your numbers for MY
Cost to drive 10000: 360
EV fees: 250
Base price with 10% sales tax: 48389

Yearly savings with MY: 414

Price difference: 13299
Break even: 32 years

Now let's add 7500 tax credit and not everyone is even eligible for it.
Price difference: 5799
Break even: 14 years

In the real world and over 10 years, I don't expect Tesla to get 3.5 mi/kw or RAV4 to get 39 mpg. However Toyotas are known to get 10% less while Tesla's are known to get 25% less. I don't want to go into the real world, because it's too complex and numbers are hard to come.

This also assumes that the initial 5799 earns no return/costs nothing to finance, which is not true.

 

[SDH]

I think the real issue (for me at least) is TIME to charge on the road, not the cost.

If hypothetically charging on the road took exactly the same time and cost (perhaps even a little more on cost), who here would not pay for that? Exactly. Everyone would take that.

As a result of the time taken to charge, I would like a 'discount' to effectively compensate me for the inconvenice of waiting (vs. gas station), if you get my drift.

The solution for me ... I usually take my Jeep on long trips unless i know there's a charger at my final destination.

 

[bfilippo]

I think in general this flags the issue for folks who are literally driving for their jobs, long distances, on a regular basis. Or, of course if you rent and/or cannot afford to install a charger. Although, if you’re buying a Rivian, that feels unlikely if you own your home.

As many folks have mentioned, the charging time and cost remains a challenge, but, again, if you charge mostly at home, this is not much of a problem.

I think if EV makers were more clear about the fact that effective today, you still really need a Level 2 charger at home or work or both in order for ownership to be cost effective or functional. Recognizing that some states have such high electricity costs now that having solar and a home charger would be the only way to mitigate this (which is why Tesla has pushed their home system so hard, they know this, even with the biggest and most reliable network).

Mostly as a major advocate who has a Tesla, Rivian and now a full solar array (did it this year because I was nervous about the credit getting challenged), I wish EV makers, including Tesla and Rivian whose primary function is developing the adoption of these, would just do more to educate people and not over promise so folks don’t end up feeling like they didn’t get what they were offered.

Hopefully we can use all the state and federal funds available to significantly improve and increase the fast charging public network in the next couple years, develop pricing competition, municipal incentives/ownership (Quebec has their own network), and can get past this hurdle.

 

[Fmc]

I enjoy my Rivian but anything more than 100 miles, I am taking the model3. Adding 100+kw is just not very efficient.

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

Just curious with so many people thinking the current DCFC networks are overcharging everyone why don’t you guys put together a business plan and start a new network undercutting the current prices.

All you need is a bunch of prime locations, decent hardware, and a good maintenance crew for high reliability.

This is a bit of a straw man argument and ignores the key point that there is existing energy distribution that has all of those things (location, infrastructure, etc) and sells energy at or below cost while still generating enormous profits across the industry.

When comparing against gas stations it's not ridiculous to be frustrated by the comparatively high cost. As I've said, it's a scarcity issue. If EV chargers were as plentiful as gas stations they would not be able to charge $.40/kwh or more, so the solution is more (and better), EV charging options.

 

[Fmc]

I pay.11/kw at home and .37 at a charger. Let’s say there are some other fees that RIVN pays so their profit margin is .20. The cost to install a charger is 25k. So a charger needs to put out 125,000kw to breakeven. Average charge is 75kw. So roughly 1700 stops to breakeven. Until Rivian can get 5 cars per day per charger there is not much margin in charging.
I would think Rivian is seeing one car per day per charger therefore with no maintenance or additional costs it will take 4-5 years to breakeven on SC.

 

[av8or]

Clickbait article after clickbait article. It’s not hard to make something look bad on the internet, especially when motivated by money. Why don’t they do a huge article about the cost savings of commuting in an EV and charging at home? Answer: Negative gets clicks, positive doesn’t.

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